Jian's vs F-22/F-35??

isthvan said:

Yes j-10 is impressive design but think about its development... Process took 15 years because development started on Israeli design and supposed to have western tech, then west imposed military sanctions and China had to ask Russia for help to finish development... So R&D faze of project is made with help from Russia and Israel... Chinese engineers learned allot, but did they develop crucial components on there one? No... They just modified Israeli design (whit a lot of help from Russia) to accommodate Russian engine and domestic radar (based on US AN/APG-66 tech)...
And do not forget that Europeans contributed to JSFs development, they are not just buying it... Europe is working on stealth technologies for last 20 years…
Point is that when you are copying someone’s design you just know how he made that product, but you lack knowledge why he did it that way… For example you do not know if other ways were to complex, to expensive, did they lack hi-tech materials to do it smaller or les complex… You can considerable improve design you are copying but you lack basic know-how for further development… Ask any engineer and he will give you same answer…

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no where is it ever proven the j-10 recieved russian assistance beyond the engine. The j-10 has multiple differences from the Lavi, more thna just a fusalage change, which was ver signifigant. changes are in the wing and canards, and a little in the cockpit too. China is not copying, it is merely adapting an already popular design of the time reflected in the EF, x-31, Rafale, and Mig 1.44.

Europe is indeed working on stealth technology. This is proved by the Mako. But they are not developing a fully stealthy combat fighter in the class of the f-22. china is, and will have more know-how than the eruopeans on thsi as a result.

MIGleader said:

no where is it ever proven the j-10 recieved russian assistance beyond the engine. The j-10 has multiple differences from the Lavi, more thna just a fusalage change, which was ver signifigant. changes are in the wing and canards, and a little in the cockpit too. China is not copying, it is merely adapting an already popular design of the time reflected in the EF, x-31, Rafale, and Mig 1.44.

Europe is indeed working on stealth technology. This is proved by the Mako. But they are not developing a fully stealthy combat fighter in the class of the f-22. china is, and will have more know-how than the eruopeans on thsi as a result.

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It is not proven that they did not received Russian help either... I personally believe that Russians helped… Now my opinion is not relevant because I can’t prove it so we will skip that…
Differences between Lavi and j-10 were needed because China needed air superiority fighter while Lavi was developed as strike fighter… I did not say that Chinese engineers did not make improvements to original design…
I have taken J-10 as example how god copy can be and to tray explain that you can not develop radically new designs just by copying someone else’s designs…
My point is that even if j-xx fails it will do far more for Chinese industry then j-10 development because they would learned more from development on their one then they could learned from years of copying foreign designs…

As for Europe stealth development they have knowledge and resources for development of stealth fighter (Meko is not even best example, there were many European stealth projects)… Europe does not have political will for such project momentarily not to mention that UK firms can not cooperate on stealth projects with other European countries because US restrictions…

Ps. I do not think that j-xx will fail. I’m just trying to explain my point…

MIGleader said:

no where is it ever proven the j-10 recieved russian assistance beyond the engine. The j-10 has multiple differences from the Lavi, more thna just a fusalage change, which was ver signifigant. changes are in the wing and canards, and a little in the cockpit too. China is not copying, it is merely adapting an already popular design of the time reflected in the EF, x-31, Rafale, and Mig 1.44.

Europe is indeed working on stealth technology. This is proved by the Mako. But they are not developing a fully stealthy combat fighter in the class of the f-22. china is, and will have more know-how than the eruopeans on thsi as a result.

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This is where you're wrong. **************************8***

You must wake up and realize that China is copying thech. all the time. So to answeer the question about the j-11 or j-10 againt even the super bug wouldn't be a fair match. The j-35 has alot of similar attributes to the f22 so unless it was 5-1 then it might change. No copy is as good as the original.

This forum is about the military and we do not allow provacative flamming, proven or unproven. Please watch out for your own posts' language or watch out for your treatment.

This is where you're wrong. China is the biggest copy in the world.
for example J-xx is just a copied version of the f-22. The j-10s are copies of Dassault. and the list goes on.....

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No. I disagree. China isn't copying technology. Yes China did receive a lot of help from Soviet Union back then, but look at the weapon they actually produced. Nothing is the same. For example J-7G, it has nothing in common with the original Mig-21 other than the airframe. Also look at FC-1, maybe the airframe was based on F-16 technology, but look at the weapon system and everything else, is it the same as the original F-16?

As for J-xx, I believe that the airframe may be similiar to F-22 because F-22 airframes are proven to be very stealthy, but the avonics will not be the same as F-22. NO WAY!

There is no way China will let the world think of itself as some technology copier.
:china:

tomcat12 said:

This is where you're wrong. China is the biggest copy in the world.
for example J-xx is just a copied version of the f-22. The j-10s are copies of Dassault. and the list goes on.....

You must wake up and realize that China is copying thech. all the time. So to answeer the question about the j-11 or j-10 againt even the super bug wouldn't be a fair match. The j-35 has alot of similar attributes to the f22 so unless it was 5-1 then it might change. No copy is as good as the original.

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You must realize you are wrong on everything you said. The j-10 traces virtually nothing back to Dassault aircraft coorperation. And how do you know what the j-xx looks like?

The rest of your "argument" i have difficulty understanding, so i wont bother to debate it.

istvan, regardless of the reason, europe does not have a stealth fighter project the sixe of the j-xx project. If they do start soon, they will be behind China.

Thers nothing wrong with recieving foreign help. Even america had to swallow its pride and go as the russians for help on VTOL in order to make the marine f-35.

PLABUDDY said:

There is no way China will let the world think of itself as some technology copier.
:china:

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hate to break it to you, but that has already happened--China has a long uphill battle to change this worldwide perception, and a few indigenous aircraft designs won't be enough.

Europe is indeed working on stealth technology. This is proved by the Mako. But they are not developing a fully stealthy combat fighter in the class of the f-22. china is, and will have more know-how than the eruopeans on thsi as a result.
...
europe does not have a stealth fighter project the sixe of the j-xx project. If they do start soon, they will be behind China.

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Obviously there is no disputing that europe doesn't have a manned fighter in the F-22 class, and maybe they don't have any single stealth project the size of the J-XX (although how would anyone know just how many resources are allocated to that--it is as or more opaque a programm as any other chinese military program), but Europe has the Neuron project that will develope a pure stealth UCAV--some would say that trumps any manned fighter design. If it is seen through, and there does seem to be good political support from many nations at this early stage, then europe will have a first rate stealth UCAV. I wouldn't make claims like "europe will be behind china" in stealth tech--completely baseless.

I think its another one of Dengs Cats.

This time is does not matter if the Cat is home grown or imported as long as it still catches the mouse.

Some of you youngsters need to learn better patience, most of the worlds advanced weapons are built by Western firms which have been at the cutting edge for a hundred years or more. To somehow expect a developing country to ovehaul and overtake these companies in a couple of decades is so unrealistic. The time for China's high tech industries will come, but not yet, not for a while.

PS I will be keeping an eye on this thread too

walter said:

hate to break it to you, but that has already happened--China has a long uphill battle to change this worldwide perception, and a few indigenous aircraft designs won't be enough.



Obviously there is no disputing that europe doesn't have a manned fighter in the F-22 class, and maybe they don't have any single stealth project the size of the J-XX (although how would anyone know just how many resources are allocated to that--it is as or more opaque a programm as any other chinese military program), but Europe has the Neuron project that will develope a pure stealth UCAV--some would say that trumps any manned fighter design. If it is seen through, and there does seem to be good political support from many nations at this early stage, then europe will have a first rate stealth UCAV. I wouldn't make claims like "europe will be behind china" in stealth tech--completely baseless.

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I hate to break it to u as well, but there's a big difference between worldwide perception & US/western perception. Think abt it.

It's still early days for J-xx, but it's quite funny to say it's a copy of F-22 just coz it's also stealthy, has wings, designed to fly etc. Just like saying GM is copying Toyota coz its new design has 4 wheels as well.
I'm sure heads will roll in the US defence industry if indeed somehow China has gained enough access to F-22 tech to allow them to make copies.

SampanViking said:

I think its another one of Dengs Cats.
Some of you youngsters need to learn better patience, most of the worlds advanced weapons are built by Western firms which have been at the cutting edge for a hundred years or more. To somehow expect a developing country to ovehaul and overtake these companies in a couple of decades is so unrealistic. The time for China's high tech industries will come, but not yet, not for a while.

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then how did japan do it so quickly? korea? And its not like these countries cannot produce advanced military equipment, its just that the funding and motivation was never there in the first place, which is why they lag behind now in indigenous r&d. China, on the other hand, has been investing rescources in weapons development for half a decade now.

most american defence companies are not a century old. Raltheon was first founded in 1922, so it is only 84 years old. SAC was founded in 1951, so it is 55 years old. using this trend, american defence coorperations are only an average of 30 years older than their Chinese counterparts.