JH-7/JH-7A/JH-7B Thread

delft

Brigadier
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

I don't want to comment on the bomber design before we have more information. I only want to remark that when using printing rather than older metal working methods for the heavily loaded parts of such an aircraft you not only save a lot of weight but in the prototyping stage you also save a lot of time. I think that will be mightily interesting to PLAAF.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

A couple of things smell fishy when it comes to that model:
- the fact that the model was displayed clearly in an exhibition and yet people are deleting threads on it online
- the fact that if the flying wing is indeed an H-X, it wouldn't make sense for the PLAAF to invest in two designs
- the fact that no military insider has mentioned such a thing before the model was revealed
- the fact that the same design appeared in fanboy drawings before

1: meaning the models are probably indicative of something they done want us to know about
2: I agree but stranger things have happened. And this isn't like two similar flying wing designs. Both these aircraft would fill their own well defined niches
3: actually we've been we've been we'll aware that the H-X "competition" involved a supersonic platform and a subsonic flying wing, and we've all assumed the PLAAF have opted for the latter as their configuration of choice. Rumours of a stealthy Su-34 class strike have also been floating around. So the revelation of this mysteyr plane isn't completely unexpected
4: I'd agree with you there, if those same fanboy drawings were not so accurate, prompt, or if the artist had not been so close to the real thing before. By implication, the only other reason you're suggesting there is a connection between those drawings and the model would be if the fanboys somehow managed to get a model into this exhibition just to spite the PLA following community.

Now I am not suggesting this plane is something the PLA is pursuing, but the fact that fanboy (insiders) managed to get up so many drawings of it combined with the fact that PLA are deleting threads related to this model — the math is simple.

As for what this plane may be... Like I said we've been aware that the H-X included both supersonic and subsonic flying wing proposal, this model may be the former . Whether the PLA are pursuing both or only the flying wing... Who knows.
But we've known for a while that SAC have been developing a new Su-34 class stealthy striker for a while. This plane is closer to thirty meters long than Su-34s twenty+, but envisaging its potential payload, it would definitely not be unreasonable to call it an Su-34 class payload stealth striker.


Now all that is settled, here is back to waiting
 
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Skywatcher

Captain
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

There's this picture of some people examining something that at the very least would be a mockup.

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Found it on Huitong's site under the Attack Aircraft section.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Here's a x post of my assessment of the model, from secretprojects forum (perhaps it's a bit premature to overanalyze this single model... but it's the most interesting to have come out since the "F-60" model... or even J-20, imho)

I think the consensus is that the model is real. Whether it's indicative of a real project that is still ongoing is up for discussion. But many chinese boards discussing this model have been taken down, leading people to believe this model is reflective of something important in the PLA... or that this is some elaborate hoax (but no one has come forward to justify why this is a hoax yet, and the model is at a display in an exhibition. Short of PSing a picture or actually sticking a fanboy model in said exhibition, it's hard to see how a hoax of this scale could be pulled off)

So, if we follow from the assumption that this model is not hogwash, there are two (or three) possibilities.
1: We've been aware the PLAAF have had an H-X project ongoing for many years, with one proposal being a flying wing, one being a supersonic bomber. This model may reflect the latter. The consensus until a yesterday imho, was that PLAAF were going with XAC's flying wing bomber with the supersonic bomber scrapped. The model being shown could reflect a promotion of a "failed bid" just to promote the company. Or conversely (but not likely), the PLAAF may be pursuing both the flying wing and the supersonic bomber (supported by the idea that behind the supersonic bomber model is a very distinctive shape of a flying wing... that could either be the sharp sword ucav, or the flying wing H-X)

2: On the other hand, there have been persistent mutterings for a while now that SAC has been developing an Su-34 class stealthy striker/fighter bomber, commonly associated with a picture of J-15's designer inspecting a curious looking part of an aircraft or part of a mockup:


J-X.jpg

It's obviously a very curious piece of airframe, but it looks like it could make sense on the bomber, perhaps as part of the upper air intake which snakes down from the top, or perhaps the wing/body join.

From the picture of the model that emerged yesterday, (assuming it uses two WS-15 or WS-10 class engines) we're looking at a plane slightly shy of ~30m. That's much bigger than the Su-34 of course, but that's forgivable given it'll probably carry much more of its payload internally.

Basically we can reduce this model down to:

1: hoax
2: rejected H-X proposal
3: one of two H-X proposals with both being pursued
4: SAC's stealthy striker -- I think this idea makes the most sense. Also, if the flying wing behind the model is indeed sharp sword (instead of flying wing H-X), then this may be SAC's display, where they're showing off some of their sharpest offerings.
 

Engineer

Major
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Unlike the US or Russia, China's main threat will still be coming from the sea in the foreseeable future. So it makes sense for China to pursue a supersonic stealth bomber right now rather than a subsonic one. Such aircraft will allow China to put significant pressure on an opponent's surface fleet. Stealth will allow the aircraft to get close to the opponent for launching air-to-surface weapons, while speed will allow the aircraft to outrun enemy's fighters.

As to whether stealth and supersonic requirements are in conflict, I do not think that is the case. The F-22 has stealth and is capable of supercruise. What conflicts with speed is size, which is why this conceptual model only has two engines and carries limited amount of weapons.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Maybe they are doing so to dismiss it rather than to stop the rumors; the same thing happened when the photoshopped photos of the JH-7B came out.

Maybe but they also locked any discussions of the J-20 darkened in the hangar that just came out. I think with the JH-7B the guy who did it came out early on and told everyone it was his CGI. So it was moot to have any discussion over it. We're actually seeing a model displayed at some exhibition. Whether they build a prototype or not is another thing. Remember Xi just had a summit with Obama. They could've let loose the pic and shut it down. If you think about it this striker/bomber could give trouble for UCAVs and their carrier home bases being bragged about that could render the ASBM useless depending what the range is.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Here's a x post of my assessment of the model, from secretprojects forum (perhaps it's a bit premature to overanalyze this single model... but it's the most interesting to have come out since the "F-60" model... or even J-20, imho)

I think the consensus is that the model is real. Whether it's indicative of a real project that is still ongoing is up for discussion. But many chinese boards discussing this model have been taken down, leading people to believe this model is reflective of something important in the PLA... or that this is some elaborate hoax (but no one has come forward to justify why this is a hoax yet, and the model is at a display in an exhibition. Short of PSing a picture or actually sticking a fanboy model in said exhibition, it's hard to see how a hoax of this scale could be pulled off)

So, if we follow from the assumption that this model is not hogwash, there are two (or three) possibilities.
1: We've been aware the PLAAF have had an H-X project ongoing for many years, with one proposal being a flying wing, one being a supersonic bomber. This model may reflect the latter. The consensus until a yesterday imho, was that PLAAF were going with XAC's flying wing bomber with the supersonic bomber scrapped. The model being shown could reflect a promotion of a "failed bid" just to promote the company. Or conversely (but not likely), the PLAAF may be pursuing both the flying wing and the supersonic bomber (supported by the idea that behind the supersonic bomber model is a very distinctive shape of a flying wing... that could either be the sharp sword ucav, or the flying wing H-X)

2: On the other hand, there have been persistent mutterings for a while now that SAC has been developing an Su-34 class stealthy striker/fighter bomber, commonly associated with a picture of J-15's designer inspecting a curious looking part of an aircraft or part of a mockup:


J-X.jpg

It's obviously a very curious piece of airframe, but it looks like it could make sense on the bomber, perhaps as part of the upper air intake which snakes down from the top, or perhaps the wing/body join.

From the picture of the model that emerged yesterday, (assuming it uses two WS-15 or WS-10 class engines) we're looking at a plane slightly shy of ~30m. That's much bigger than the Su-34 of course, but that's forgivable given it'll probably carry much more of its payload internally.

Basically we can reduce this model down to:

1: hoax
2: rejected H-X proposal
3: one of two H-X proposals with both being pursued
4: SAC's stealthy striker -- I think this idea makes the most sense. Also, if the flying wing behind the model is indeed sharp sword (instead of flying wing H-X), then this may be SAC's display, where they're showing off some of their sharpest offerings.

Looking at the other pictures, it now seems that the machine is significantly smaller than what a strategic bomber would be. Therefore it wouldn't be surprising at all if both are selected.

IF this is a real thing, and that's a massive IF, then it would just be like the unveiling of the J-31. Prototypes of Shenyang's products like Sharp Sword usually come a year after model.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

I think someone has been reading Deino's writings on the internet. They took some of the pics he posted regarding this.


Is This China's New Design for a Stealth Bomber?


The model airplanes that could one day change the global balance of power.

BY JOHN REED |JUNE 11, 2013

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A crude mockup of the structural design for what could be China's first stealth bomber.


You're looking at what some people are speculating is China's design for a stealth bomber. It may look like a simple model right now. But these Chinese models have a habit of turning into working airplanes. And if that happens in this case, watch out. Because it could potential give these Chinese the ability to penetrate deep, deep into enemy territory without the opponents ever knowing what hit them.

Remember, designs very similar to China's J-31 stealth fighter and its Li Jian stealthy-ish drone appeared as trade show models only a two years before full-size versions of the planes were revealed in the past year.

The latest plane resembles a cross between Russia's PAK DA stealth bomber design, it's T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter and Northrop's YF-23 Black Widow -- the stealth jet that lost the contest to be the world's first fifth-generation fighter to Lockheed Martin's YF-22 Raptor. (The cockpit also resembles this fictional monstrosity.)

What could such a plane be used for? It would likely serve as a penetrating bomber designed to keep an enemy far from China's shores by sneaking past enemy radar and attacking enemy bases and ships with cruise missiles. Some have speculated that China's J-20, which is huge for a fighter, was meant to fulfill this role; similar to a stealthy version of the F-111 Aardvark or F-15E Strike Eagle. However, we're seeing the J-20 conducting flight tests with air-to-air missiles; a possible indication that it may be a high-speed interceptor -- similar to the Soviet Union's giant MiG-25 Foxbat and MiG-31 Foxhound interceptors -- designed to steak out and shoot down approaching bombers.

Chinese Web forums claim the new stealth bomber might have a length of 91-feet and a wingspan of 72-feet. This is smaller than all of the U.S. and Russia's strategic bombers such as the B-1 Lancer or Tu-22M but slightly larger than the U.S.'s F-15E Strike Eagle tactical bomber. The jet is also rumored to have an operational radius of just under 2000-miles.

It should be pointed out that earlier rumors about China investing in a fleet of Russian-designed Tu-22M supersonic bombers were reportedly untrue. Rather than field the supersonic jets, China is developing a new version of its H-6 bomber -- which is based on the Soviet Tu-16 Badger that was designed in the 1950s and retired by Russia in the early 1990s.

Chinese military officials have even said that buying a 1970s-design like the Tu-22M makes little sense given the fact that U.S. radars could spot the planes coming from a long way off. This could be taken as a hint that the PLA navy or air force recognizes the need for a stealthy-bomber capable of keeping adversaries at bay.

Basically, it costs a ton of money and time to develop and field an effective bomber force. It's not just the cost of building and buying stealth planes. The Chinese will need to develop an entire support network of maintenance crews, basing infrastructure capable of handling the planes, a large aerial tanker fleet to refuel them and perhaps most importantly learning how to effectively use them.

One interesting thing to note about the design shown above is that its engine exhaust outlets appear to be square -- a stealthier design than the traditional round nozzles seen on China's current version of stealthy planes. This could be a sign that China is making progress in the extremely challenging art of jet engine design. This could also be an indication that it will be a long time before China gets the technological knowhow to develop this aircraft. Current reports indicate that China has a long way to go when it comes to engine-making.

Here's what Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group, an aviation consulting firm, told us in January when discussing the Tu-22M story about China's need for modern bombers.

"It would make sense, given China's strategy and power-projection ambitions, but one thing to consider is that building a long range bomber/maritime strike fleet isn't a standalone development," Aboulafia tells Killer Apps. "The up-front costs in terms of training, doctrine, and general fleet bed-down are very large. Even larger is the cost of support aircraft, particularly tankers, that would be useful, if not essential, in making these new bombers effective."

Such investments may be too much for a Chinese military that is buying a number of other, newer weapons systems that range from stealth fighters to anti satellite and cyber weapons.

"Unless the Chinese military budget grows at a near-breakneck pace, a development like this would likely impact other equipment procurement and systems development priorities, including ones that are less conventional and more asymmetric," said Aboulafia.

Even if China manages to get a bomber airborne in the next few years, it will be a while before it has an effective combat fleet. Still, Beijing isn't afraid of embarking on complex strategic weapons programs. The most notable of these being its fleet of aircraft carriers; another expensive strategic weapon system that takes lots of time and money to develop (even with stolen designs), maintain and figure out how to use effectively.

You're looking at what some people are speculating is China's design for a stealth bomber. It may look like a simple model right now. But these Chinese models have a habit of turning into working airplanes. And if that happens in this case, watch out. Because it could potential give these Chinese the ability to penetrate deep, deep into enemy territory without the opponents ever knowing what hit them.

Remember, designs very similar to China's J-31 stealth fighter and its Li Jian stealthy-ish drone appeared as trade show models only a two years before full-size versions of the planes were revealed in the past year.

The latest plane resembles a cross between Russia's PAK DA stealth bomber design, it's T-50 PAK FA stealth fighter and Northrop's YF-23 Black Widow -- the stealth jet that lost the contest to be the world's first fifth-generation fighter to Lockheed Martin's YF-22 Raptor. (The cockpit also resembles this fictional monstrosity.)

What could such a plane be used for? It would likely serve as a penetrating bomber designed to keep an enemy far from China's shores by sneaking past enemy radar and attacking enemy bases and ships with cruise missiles. Some have speculated that China's J-20, which is huge for a fighter, was meant to fulfill this role; similar to a stealthy version of the F-111 Aardvark or F-15E Strike Eagle. However, we're seeing the J-20 conducting flight tests with air-to-air missiles; a possible indication that it may be a high-speed interceptor -- similar to the Soviet Union's giant MiG-25 Foxbat and MiG-31 Foxhound interceptors -- designed to steak out and shoot down approaching bombers.

Chinese Web forums claim the new stealth bomber might have a length of 91-feet and a wingspan of 72-feet. This is smaller than all of the U.S. and Russia's strategic bombers such as the B-1 Lancer or Tu-22M but slightly larger than the U.S.'s F-15E Strike Eagle tactical bomber. The jet is also rumored to have an operational radius of just under 2000-miles.

It should be pointed out that earlier rumors about China investing in a fleet of Russian-designed Tu-22M supersonic bombers were reportedly untrue. Rather than field the supersonic jets, China is developing a new version of its H-6 bomber -- which is based on the Soviet Tu-16 Badger that was designed in the 1950s and retired by Russia in the early 1990s.

Chinese military officials have even said that buying a 1970s-design like the Tu-22M makes little sense given the fact that U.S. radars could spot the planes coming from a long way off. This could be taken as a hint that the PLA navy or air force recognizes the need for a stealthy-bomber capable of keeping adversaries at bay.

Basically, it costs a ton of money and time to develop and field an effective bomber force. It's not just the cost of building and buying stealth planes. The Chinese will need to develop an entire support network of maintenance crews, basing infrastructure capable of handling the planes, a large aerial tanker fleet to refuel them and perhaps most importantly learning how to effectively use them.

One interesting thing to note about the design shown above is that its engine exhaust outlets appear to be square -- a stealthier design than the traditional round nozzles seen on China's current version of stealthy planes. This could be a sign that China is making progress in the extremely challenging art of jet engine design. This could also be an indication that it will be a long time before China gets the technological knowhow to develop this aircraft. Current reports indicate that China has a long way to go when it comes to engine-making.

Here's what Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group, an aviation consulting firm, told us in January when discussing the Tu-22M story about China's need for modern bombers.

"It would make sense, given China's strategy and power-projection ambitions, but one thing to consider is that building a long range bomber/maritime strike fleet isn't a standalone development," Aboulafia tells Killer Apps. "The up-front costs in terms of training, doctrine, and general fleet bed-down are very large. Even larger is the cost of support aircraft, particularly tankers, that would be useful, if not essential, in making these new bombers effective."

Such investments may be too much for a Chinese military that is buying a number of other, newer weapons systems that range from stealth fighters to anti satellite and cyber weapons.

"Unless the Chinese military budget grows at a near-breakneck pace, a development like this would likely impact other equipment procurement and systems development priorities, including ones that are less conventional and more asymmetric," said Aboulafia.

Even if China manages to get a bomber airborne in the next few years, it will be a while before it has an effective combat fleet. Still, Beijing isn't afraid of embarking on complex strategic weapons programs. The most notable of these being its fleet of aircraft carriers; another expensive strategic weapon system that takes lots of time and money to develop (even with stolen designs), maintain and figure out how to use effectively.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

Looking at the other pictures, it now seems that the machine is significantly smaller than what a strategic bomber would be. Therefore it wouldn't be surprising at all if both are selected.

That is to say, if "both" are built, it is meant that this plane was never the supersonic contender for H-X, and "both" includes the flying wing H-X (as has been largely broadcasted over the last few months) and this model of SAC's stealthy striker. Let's dub it "JH-XX" for now.

---

I really hope this plane is real. It's such a nice looking plane, just going by the model and CGs. At this point I almost couldn't care about the capability it'd bring to the table, just want to see it fly!

jhxx4.png
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
Re: JH-7/JH-7A Thread

That is to say, if "both" are built, it is meant that this plane was never the supersonic contender for H-X, and "both" includes the flying wing H-X (as has been largely broadcasted over the last few months) and this model of SAC's stealthy striker. Let's dub it "JH-XX" for now.

---

I really hope this plane is real. It's such a nice looking plane, just going by the model and CGs. At this point I almost couldn't care about the capability it'd bring to the table, just want to see it fly!

jhxx4.png

Would not be surprised if it indeed makes it to the prototype in a while; the application of 3D printing cuts time a lot.
 
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