JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media
- Thread starter crazyinsane105
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Hi guys ... I need some help regarding the engines under consideration for the very early "Sabre II" / "Super-7" because I found some very crude "babelfish" translations of early engine-"competition" when Western assistance was still under way !
All what I could extract is that there were the following engines under consideration:
• Pratt & Whitney PW1212 turbojet, itself an improved version of the basic American J52 with features of the JT8D offering faster response to throttle movements, greater fuel economy and stall-free operation (to be designated J52-P-409 in US service and proposed without afterburner for the EA-6B Prowler).
• Pratt & Whitney PW1216 turbojet [unsure modus on] related to an update kit for the Chinese WP-7BM or even WP-13 with Western items ... is that true ??? [unsure modus off] with a thrust of 5400 kp and 7425 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s) and a unit price of around US $ 2 Mio.
The weaknesses of both engines were especially their age – being originally developed to power the A-4 Skyhawk in 1962 and the Fishbed itself – and some necessary changes to the intake-design. Additional it would have required a strengthened airframe adding around 135 kg of additional weight.
• Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofan, with the highest thrust but also the highest price of all contenders with 6122 kp and 9387 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s).
• General Electric F404 turbofan with a thrust of 4790 kp and 7711 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a unit price of around 1,8 Mio. US $.
• Turbo Union RB.199-127/128 turbofan with a thrust of 4123 kp and 7430 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a similar unit price.
• At least until the final cancellation of the Super-7 another contender appeared in the form of the WP-14 “Kunlun” which was at a too early state of development. (????)
Can anyone help me out with these contenders and / or some more technical aspects ????
Thanks in advance,
Deino
All what I could extract is that there were the following engines under consideration:
• Pratt & Whitney PW1212 turbojet, itself an improved version of the basic American J52 with features of the JT8D offering faster response to throttle movements, greater fuel economy and stall-free operation (to be designated J52-P-409 in US service and proposed without afterburner for the EA-6B Prowler).
• Pratt & Whitney PW1216 turbojet [unsure modus on] related to an update kit for the Chinese WP-7BM or even WP-13 with Western items ... is that true ??? [unsure modus off] with a thrust of 5400 kp and 7425 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s) and a unit price of around US $ 2 Mio.
The weaknesses of both engines were especially their age – being originally developed to power the A-4 Skyhawk in 1962 and the Fishbed itself – and some necessary changes to the intake-design. Additional it would have required a strengthened airframe adding around 135 kg of additional weight.
• Pratt & Whitney PW1120 turbofan, with the highest thrust but also the highest price of all contenders with 6122 kp and 9387 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 81 kg/s).
• General Electric F404 turbofan with a thrust of 4790 kp and 7711 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a unit price of around 1,8 Mio. US $.
• Turbo Union RB.199-127/128 turbofan with a thrust of 4123 kp and 7430 kp with afterburner (air-flow of 68 kg/s) for a similar unit price.
• At least until the final cancellation of the Super-7 another contender appeared in the form of the WP-14 “Kunlun” which was at a too early state of development. (????)
Can anyone help me out with these contenders and / or some more technical aspects ????
Thanks in advance,
Deino
Deino:
During the early 1980s, the US contemplated ways to prop-up China's armed forces, as a means of counter-balancing Soviet intentions in the Far East. For a time, there was talk of supplying a more modern Western turbofan - either for the "Super-7" or possibly for an all-new airplane. I recall seeing proposals for a US-powered "J-12" program back in the early 1980s.
The engines that China would have preferred, were the more modern turbofans: PW1120, F404, or RB.199. No deal ever materialized, however, for a variety of reasons. The Chinese government did rate air power as a priority at that time, and the US ultimately backed away from supplying front-line fighter engines.
The PW1120 was a derivative of the F100-220, featuring the same core (compressor, burner, and high pressure turbine), but with a redesigned fan, low pressure turbine, and afterburner. The concept was to develop a smaller, but more reliable derivative of the F100 engine. This engine was ultimately selected to power Israel's Lavi fighter (which was cancelled in 1987), although it was also considered as a contendor to re-engine Israeli and German F-4 fighters.
The F404 is the well-known engine that powers the F-18A/B and C/D models. A version of this engine also powers Sweden's Gripen fighter.
The RB.199 powers the Panavia Tornado. It's a much more complicated engine than the other two, even though it's contemporaneous in technology: featuring three spools rather than two. As a direct consequence, its maintenance reputation has continued to suffer.
Once the US backed away from issuing an export license for a modern (1980s-standard) engine, the concept pretty much went away. I never saw the PW1212 or PW1216 mentioned as serious contendors. They would have offered no real technology or performance gain for China.
If you want more information on individual engine spec's, I would recommend that you locate a copy of Jane's Aero-Engines (I own an older copy, if you can't find one).
Hey, thanks a lot !!
But do You have some more information on the "older" Pratt & Whitney proposals ?
A I understand the text the PW1212 was mentioned as a basis to develop the PW1216 as an sfterburner equipped version of the PW1212 with the afterburner of the WP-7BM or WP-13 !
Any idea ??
Cheers, Deino :coffee:
But do You have some more information on the "older" Pratt & Whitney proposals ?
A I understand the text the PW1212 was mentioned as a basis to develop the PW1216 as an sfterburner equipped version of the PW1212 with the afterburner of the WP-7BM or WP-13 !
Any idea ??
Cheers, Deino :coffee:
oringo
Junior Member
From TFA:
9月10日上午，伴随着巨大的轰鸣声，“枭龙”06架直插云霄，在空中飞行16分钟后，安全平稳降落，标志着“枭龙”研制又进入了一个新阶段。
较之今年4 月28日首飞的全状态“枭龙”04架，“枭龙”06架飞机除燃油系统有改进之外，其最大的亮点在于装载了国产航电设备。在首飞之前进行的放飞评审中，专家组一致认为“枭龙”06架的技术状态优于前几架。“枭龙”06架首飞成功，不仅有力地推动了“枭龙”飞机的研制生产，同时为航电设备国产化打下了坚实基础。 （杨科程）
Translation:
PT06 flew for 16 minutes on 9/10, markning a new milestone for the FC1 program. The main difference between PT06 and PT04, besides some improvements to the fuel system, is the installation of indigineous avianics. The expert panel agrees that the PT06's technological status (whatever the fuck that means) is better than previous PTs.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
The 06 avionics are all indigenous? So does that mean all those separate pics of the cockpit simulator we saw when the 04 first flew wasn't on that prototype then? I guess they were selling to the Pakistanis what was going to be on the 06 before it even rolled out. I wonder what else is to come.
oringo
Junior Member
I'm sure they are agressively selling China-made avionics. But the original article didn't say all avionics were indiginous. They only said "iniginous avionics were installed". There is a small difference, but I must correct you.
maglomanic
Junior Member
on the simulator the only noticable thing was the MFDs. The same MFDs were seen on the real 04 with PAF ACM sitting in the cockpit.
