JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Ok so i take it no one has a factual answer to the PL-12 and SD-10 query apart from having read it somewhere (like you do!). I have to agree with the whole "mine is better than yours" mindset until evidence is provided as this isn't the only issue where this mindset is implemented. Just because X country does it doesn't mean Y does it too. There are alot more factors involved. As mentioned before, China showing and offering to sell its most secret and advanced fighter to Pakistan is food for thought when it comes to the relationship the countries have. I think some people here grossly under estimate this relationship.

In terms of the whole issue between F-16 and JF-17. Lets not forget what the JF-17 is meant to replace...and that's not F-16's. It is much more capable then what it is to replace and anything on top of that, whether it reaches F-16 standards or not is extra. The main thing is that it has BVR, and overall decent capabilities over the older PAF jets and therefore is a cheap worthy replacement capable enough of giving a good fight. Also, agreed with Gollevainen.

Regards

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Gollevainen said:

Thank you for posting that article. Thougth largerly offtopic in JF-17 thread, it still remainds everybody about the F-16 that is so much tied to the devolpment of JF-17.

But it also remains me about the fact that JF-17 is more of pride and 'better-than-nothing' by nature than anything compared to combat planes that are designed to take aviation technology a next step ahead.

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Yes. I don't think pakistan has the resources or technology base to break the mould as it were

The Mushak was the first step on the ladder for training aircraft. The JF-17 is the first step for jet-bombers with some fighter ability hopefully the progress from JF-17 to genuine air-superiority aircraft will be faster than from the Mushak.

The ballistic missile and cruise missile programs have progressed A LOT faster.

I believe that the chinese government knew from the outset that the JF-17 would be a replacement for pakistan's Mirage's. It's fascinating though how both countries managed to throw up a smokescreen in order to avoid problems with the world community by pretending it was a replacement for the F-16's. Worthy of Zhuge Liang

I wonder how the UCAV program will progress in light of the report below

Pakistan believes it can move its UAV programs forward as much as a decade by studying an Israeli-built Searcher Mark-II shot down while on a mission for the Indian air force in June 2002. Pakistan army staff Gen. Mohammad Yusuf Khan has called the acquisition and development of new and advanced UAVs critical and would like to buy up to three dozen U.S.-built Predators, as well as developing an indigenous production capability.

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Odd how fate drops all these weapons into pakistan's lap...

Once the Iranian government become's stronger or is removed it may be that Pakistan and Iran will go back to
discussing joint weapons programs

Re: JF-17: New Pics

FreeAsia2000 said:

So let me get this straight
The JF-17 is going to be used as a ground attack craft despite this
it's weapons load is only 3,600 kg
<snip>
After all looking at all the above i've come to the conclusion that the JF-17 is nothing more nor less than a replacement
for the Mirage III/V's. It's role is the same and the everything else about it being similar to the F-16 is just a
smokesceen

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The JF-17's published specs say 3,800 kg of munitions, which is actually quite similiar to Mirage III & Mirage V's 4,000 kg limit.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

FreeAsia2000 said:

So let me get this straight

The JF-17 is going to be used as a ground attack craft despite this
it's weapons load is only 3,600 kg

Presumably it's going to be used to target mobile targets like armour
otherwise pakistan might as well use it's cruise missiles

The JF-17 is then going to need some air superiority fighters for
protection.

Wouldn't it have made more sense just to have gone for 4th gen multi-role
aircraft which can carry a heck of a lot more weight ?

Maybe we need to relook at the reasons for the F-16 ?

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You guys are confusing F-16s with JF-17. It's not gonna be a heavy ground attack fighter. It will be a 'light attack and air suprirority' or light multirole fighter. You just cannot compare it with F-16 in this category.

The primary A2G role is going to be CAS not concentrated ground strikes like wild weasal. For CAS you need more sorties than huge munition load being delivered at the same time(as is the case with pure ground strike).

Like they say Apple and oranges.

After all looking at all the above i've come to the conclusion that the JF-17 is nothing more nor less than a replacement
for the Mirage III/V's. It's role is the same and the everything else about it being similar to the F-16 is just a
smokesceen

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Not just F-16, but PAF F-16s. If you compare it with 32 A/Bs you 'll see what it means alot to PAF. You guys are taking this plane out of context. It's a customized solution to PA needs i repeat

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Gollevainen said:

But it also remains me about the fact that JF-17 is more of pride and 'better-than-nothing' by nature than anything compared to combat planes that are designed to take aviation technology a next step ahead.

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Now please get off the soap box and explain your assertions. It's getting pretty weird and ridiculous. Which plane was ever designed for taking aviation 'to next step'?? if i am not wrong every combat aircraft is designed according to needs and requirements dictated by the operating airforce's doctorine. You are probably confusing combat aircrafts with inovation in aviation industry.

I have said it before and i am repeating it again, please stop seeing things out of context.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Maybe i formed my sentence bit wrongly, the emphasis should have been more on the fact that when other countryes than china desing next generation of combat planes, their requirments usually calls the next step as otherwise it wuould just suffice to improve existing desing....

but Seeing things out of contest??
Your the one making ridicilous statement that JF-17 is somehow tailored to PAFs needs...when the words you forgot in the middle are "Tailored by the limitations of Pakistanese court purchasers to produce 2nd rate front line fighter". I find it pretty hard to imagine that somehow Pakistan requirments calls to produce obsolete machine to counter threads that are superior, while beeing of almoust 70's desing. Economical and political limitations that Pakistan have imposed upon it arent the same thing as military requirments....not even when the military officals try to claim it on its propaganda. I strongly suggest you to take out the green and white eye glasses and look things 'inside' the actual contest.
Those customised solutions are not those that PAF has planned, but waht the JF-17 limits them to have.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Exactly how many planes will have the same ability and are that cheap? I rest my case.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Gollevainen said:

Maybe i formed my sentence bit wrongly, the emphasis should have been more on the fact that when other countryes than china desing next generation of combat planes, their requirments usually calls the next step as otherwise it wuould just suffice to improve existing desing....

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So now you are implying that developing JF-17 led china to abondon it's next Gen fighters. Did it stop China from J-10 or J-11B or the latest fifth gen developments??

Is it really a singularity that aviation companies improve upon their existing designs to sell to another country. Examples

block 60 F-16 for UAE while USAF was pursuing F/A-22
upgrades to Mig-29(Mig-35 OVT) while Russia's next step is Pak-FA
M2K while Rafale is every plane for France.

So why exactly are you opposed to one country China's similar endevour when every one seems to be doing it. China is in for money, what is wrong with that. I am sorry if your larger than life expectations for 'advancement of aviations' are let down by business minded venture by Chinese aviation industry, but can't do much about it can we?

but Seeing things out of contest??
Your the one making ridicilous statement that JF-17 is somehow tailored to PAFs needs...when the words you forgot in the middle are "Tailored by the limitations of Pakistanese court purchasers to produce 2nd rate front line fighter". I find it pretty hard to imagine that somehow Pakistan requirments calls to produce obsolete machine to counter threads that are superior, while beeing of almoust 70's desing. Economical and political limitations that Pakistan have imposed upon it arent the same thing as military requirments....not even when the military officals try to claim it on its propaganda. I strongly suggest you to take out the green and white eye glasses and look things 'inside' the actual contest.
Those customised solutions are not those that PAF has planned, but waht the JF-17 limits them to have.

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I used the word doctrine first and foremost, and you totally ignored it. Doctrine takes into account limitations and optimum solution based on those limitations. Don't be too sarcastic when you use the word 'limitations', every nation and airforce have em and they shape the doctrine.If we go by your logic, there would be no need for JSF since F/A-22 is there. Most airforces use hi-lo mixes. If lo was just as much capable as hi then why would it be lo??

Now lets take a look at your 'limitations taunt'
1)Indiginous production. Free from sanctions and restrictions on supplies.
2)Use of most of the munitions inventory.
3)Be able to fulfill mission profiles (dictated again by doctorine) of most types in PAF inventory.
4)Integration with concepts and tech newer to PAF (BVR,Datalink,HMS/HOBS)

Now go ahead and explain what part of that you don't like in a plane that is meant to be lo side of the airforce. All this is not ebing done at the cost of hi aspect of the mix for which there will be newer f-16s and j-10s.


P.S: Do start spending more time inside home cause the cold is getting to you...(atleast i am staying in context of your geographical 'limitations' if you think thsi is personal. Personal remarks like take your 'white and green' glasses off ask for similar personal remarks)

Re: JF-17: New Pics

The JF17 is an advancement for Pakistan. It really is. They have no other plane that has BVR ability.

So in a real sense, for Pakistan, the JF17 is an advancement.

For China, and the world of course, the JF17 is not an advancement. China has more advanced J10s, J11s, and JXX in the wings. For China, it is strictly a business venture to make $$.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

1. Pakistan is one of China's closest ally. China did help Pakistan built its first nuclear reactor(Chashma-1) and atomic bomb. How helpful can one get? China(and along with North Korea) help Pakistan built tactical ballistic missiles. I don't considered these weapons as "downgraded".

2. The most important feature of the JF-17 fighter program is not the plane itself, but the manufacturing infrastructure(the aircraft factory). This allows Pakistan to not only built its own aircrafts, but to design new and modified existing aircrafts it desired. A Chinese contractor has already been selected to built the new factory.:coffee: