JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Black jack said:

Mate, I never said China will or won't buy the JF-17. I indicated that in my opinion which i'm entitled to...there is a place for JF-17 in the PLAAF.

Click to expand...

And the PLAAF disagree with you. That is why they expressed doubt about the JF17 many times. That is why Pakistan publicly stated they want China to buy JF17s. This was before the FC1 was redesigned. I think what we can guess is, Pakistan wanted China to buy the JF17 and used the F16 as a "motivation" to pressure China. China was surprised by this. China doesn't want the JF17 because it has a Russian engine, and it is made obsolete and redundant by a better J10. So I am guessing China and Pakistan compromised. To satisfy Pakistan, CAC vastly improved the JF17, and Pakistan agreed to not require China to purchase the JF17 for it's own airforce. The JF17-04 is good enough now that Pakistan definitely wants it. But it won't pressure China into buying it for it's own airforce.

The -04 is a better plane, and has much stronger export potential than the old -03 model.

Which you obvioulsy wouldn't because like most other Chinese you think J-10 is gods gift. (It's good but not that good!)

Click to expand...

Nobody is sayinig the J10 is god's gift. Stop exaggerating and putting words in people's mouths. But compared to the JF17, the J10 IS God's gift. Can you accept that? The JF17 is a piece of crap compared to the J10.

J10 is more like the Typhoon, and Eurofighter than the obsolete JF17. The Super J10 will be a bonafide Typhoon class.

Just because they haven't said anything doesn't mean they ain't buying it...apparently J-10 doesn't even exist...officially or until recently right?

Click to expand...

The JF17 is not a top-secret plane like the J10. Therefore, there is no need to be secretive about purchasing it. If China wanted to buy it, they would've already announced it. Since they haven't, we can be pretty confident that it won't be bought by the PLAAF. The J10 is the one Chinese want.

In terms of J7, they're old and crap. Time will tell.

Click to expand...

Haha..ask any Pakistan pilot about the J7MP model and they will say nothing but high praise for it. In fact, both Chinese and Pakistan pilots LOVE the J7E model. It is F16 like in terms of manueverability. Sure, it is obsolete, but for it's role as a point defence fighter, it serves it's mission well. The JF17 is not much better than the J7E. The only advantage JF17 has is it's stronger BVR.

Also...when did Pakistan tell China to buy the FC1? Are you presuming again?

Click to expand...

Nope. This was reported by many news articles several years ago. Get with the program. *********.

There is an air of unease among Chinese who wouldn't like to see the FC1 in the PLAAF and were already hearing excuses like "oh if they purchase it, it's only going to be because they are under pressure to bring the price down"!! I hope they purchase it now!

Click to expand...

Re: JF-17: New Pics

To Sky Hawk and Black jack... Flaming will not be tolerated Warnings will be issued if flaming continues

bd popeye moderator

Gollevainen said:

exactly...I have sometimes wondered, if the Pakistanese participation in JF-17 is more of sponsor level than actual devolper, Why the PAF simply hasent supported chinese J-10 production and getting change to recieve it instead of the rather pedestrial FC-1 which magnificent performance limits mainly to imagition of some PDF hothead's? I mean (whit out any country bashing or otherwise detoriate 'hidden meanings' ) JF-17 is a that size of plane that pakistanese (or country of pakistans size) should have produced by themselves.... its rather certain that these f-18 level fighter will become service in India and Iran, in fact they already have become in limited extence.

Click to expand...

Golly,
the funny thing about your this question is you have already answered it above in your post. It's economics. When we look into such questions we have to look the entire history of the events. FC-1 was considered as a cheap option that could be fielded in greater numbers (J-10 wont fit here) and would bring indiginous fighter plane building capabilities to Pakistan. Now J-10 was completely secret at that time and no one knew when J-10 will materialize, also J-10 was a major undertaking as opposed to a light fighter marked as replacement for medium tech planes in PAF.
i totally understand when people look at Pakistan's decision from and outsider's view but then they miss the whole chemistry of decision. You siad yourself how light multirole fighters are suitable for countries like Pakistan.

On the other hand now that J-10 has matured , Paksitan is going for that aircraft too,but in small numbers. So the basic idea is a high performance aircraft in front line role supported by large numbers of light aircrafts with high tech gadegtry and datalink to provide sufficient cover in Pakistan's own air space (PAF's current doctorine is very much defensive geared towards high over all sortie rate which requires larger numbers).

Regarding assertions by some members here that JF-17 is not capable, i am just amazed why would you guys even compare it with J-10 and other aircrafts?? It's a customized soltuion to PAF's requirements based on their threat assesment of the challenges. Why would that necessarily fit into PLAAF's or anyother country's doctorine? JF-17 is for PAF what J-10 is for PLAAF. Larger numbers and giant leap in indiginous tech for fighter plane development for Pakistan. Maybe not impressive for you guys but for PAF it indeed is impressive

SteelBird said:

I have an idea, dunno whether it is feasible: what if they use a pair of RD-93 or a single AL-31 series on FC-1? Is that possible? But of course it will raise the unit price of the plane.

Click to expand...

There will be improvements for sure but not radical ones like putting two engines.Probably a better option will be to improve WS-13A for Jf-17 use more composites to shed weight and increase payload,range or both. Good radar in PESA/AESA category is also very probable.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

FreeAsia2000 said:

How do you see the role of the Super J-10 ?

Also I don't understand why Pakistan is buying such large numbers of the
JF-17. I mean they are going to be cannon fodder for F-18's and a hideous
waste of money


The only use for the recent batch of arms purchases such as JF-17's and helicopters seems to

Click to expand...

Pakistan needed cheap light medium tech (which is now kind of getting high tech) plane to replace all it's aging F-7s,A-5s and Mirages. Now if Pakistan had decided on a heavy fighter it could not buy enough to do the job and produce enough sorties. For more aggresive missions pakistan will use J-10s and newer F-16s. One good thing about Jf-17 is that it is very multirole for PAF and can carry almost all the munition in PAF's inventory. So this fighter will be doing following:
Point defese,Airsupriority over Pakistan airspace, CAS and possibly naval role.

Regarding your assertion that it will canon fodder to other fighters, you must look at the inventory of PAF's main rival. Once these Jf-17s are datalinked with Erieye coupled with their good avionics and BVR capabilty, good tactics, and larger numbers they will be very formidable Iwithin Pakistani airspace.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

maglomanic said:

Pakistan needed cheap light medium tech (which is now kind of getting high tech) plane to replace all it's aging F-7s,A-5s and Mirages. Now if Pakistan had decided on a heavy fighter it could not buy enough to do the job and produce enough sorties. For more aggresive missions pakistan will use J-10s and newer F-16s. One good thing about Jf-17 is that it is very multirole for PAF and can carry almost all the munition in PAF's inventory. So this fighter will be doing following:
Point defese,Airsupriority over Pakistan airspace, CAS and possibly naval role.

Regarding your assertion that it will canon fodder to other fighters, you must look at the inventory of PAF's main rival. Once these Jf-17s are datalinked with Erieye coupled with their good avionics and BVR capabilty, good tactics, and larger numbers they will be very formidable Iwithin Pakistani airspace.

Click to expand...

To be more specific, look at PAF inventory

They have over 400 aging F-7, Mirage, A-5 combined. Even in 2:1 replacement ratio, PAF would still need 200 planes. It would be wonderful if all of them can be replaced by F-16, J-10 sort of planes, but let's face it, PAF won't have such amount of money to do that, instead, investing on JF-17 is a good plan to upgrade with much improved capabilties than what they have right now and much financially feasible. Besides, partistani will build JF-17 itself, that's also a huge boost to their aviation industry. I see purchasing/manufacturing JF-17 in vast number is a really wise decision for PAF.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

tphuang said:

it is modified on an existing Chinese design, you do realize that right? It can be argued that China has more claim for royalties over al-khalid than Pakistan has over JF-17 since.

Click to expand...

That is contract outsourcing. Even the ahhem...Arjun is based upon the Leopard design by consultancy from Krauss Maffei. Now they will not get any royalties on its future sales.

JF-17 is different, similar to Brahmos where both parties invest in a risk-sharing venture and get profits on the product if it is sold.

1. range (whether combat radius or ferry range)
2. payload (J-10 is far greater than 4500 KG, check F-16 for a better idea)
3. more hardpoint + greater payload -> more AAMs, can engage more BVR targets and such, can carry both AAMs and PGMs

Click to expand...

The difference in range is small. The capacity to carry missiles under the wings is the same for both aircraft whereas the J-10 has more points under the fuselage. The weapons load for FC-1 is 3,800 kg whereas the "useful load" is 4500 kg for J-10. Thus it is likely that the difference will only be in A2G payload.

7. 4 to 6 means much much better maneuverability and speed at all altitudes

Click to expand...

I agree on this point, but it must be noted that JF-17 has got DSI (as in JSF) that also reduces a lot of weight and increases speed. It has also got a new design in PT-04.

8. better EW suite (better RWR, MAW and such)

Click to expand...

I dont understand why would China put less advanced EW suite on the JF-17. As an example, the Su-30 MKI and the MiG-21 Bisons have been fitted with the same Tarang RWR, that was developed by India.

11. generally the latest Chinese radar gets tested on J-10 first, so it will always have the advantage of having the most advanced Chinese radar
12. same with all other Chinese avionics systems

Click to expand...

These 2 advantages are likely to be in favour of the JF-17, once Pakistan agrees to purchase UK avionics and the AESA radar.

The FC-1 is an air-superiority fighter, whereas the J-10 is a multirole fighter (FC-1's A2A weapons + more space for A2G weapons).
Pakistan will use the JF-17 for air-to-air missions and the J-10 for air-to-air as well as bombing missions in India.

But to say that the J-10 is far beyond the FC-1 would be an overstatement. It is for this reason that I do not understand why China built these 2 aircraft that have near-similar configurations. I might have understood if the J-10 had been of the size and operational capability of an F-15 or Su-30 MKI. Why 2 F-16s ?

Pakistan wants to purchase the J-10 only because of its TVC capability, and low cost over other multirole jets like Rafale and Typhhon, which have no TVC and are more expensive.
Had the JF-17 been a multi-role fighter, I'm sure PAF would not have given the J-10 a second look and gone straight to UK to purchase AESA radar.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

netspider said:

To be more specific, look at PAF inventory

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They have over 400 aging F-7, Mirage, A-5 combined. Even in 2:1 replacement ratio, PAF would still need 200 planes. It would be wonderful if all of them can be replaced by F-16, J-10 sort of planes, but let's face it, PAF won't have such amount of money to do that, instead, investing on JF-17 is a good plan to upgrade with much improved capabilties than what they have right now and much financially feasible. Besides, partistani will build JF-17 itself, that's also a huge boost to their aviation industry. I see purchasing/manufacturing JF-17 in vast number is a really wise decision for PAF.

Click to expand...

Well what really concerns me is the idea that JF-17 is 80% equal to the F-16 .. I mean what does that really mean ? In mass tank warfare I can understand
how that concept would work IF you had more tanks but in the air ?

Secondly if the JF-17 cannot be upgraded to the latest versions of the F-16 then it's pretty useless because pakistan will not really be dealing with some third rate airforce. How much will it cost to upgrade ALL those planes ? Wouldn't it have been better just to go for fewer but more effective J-10's which at least are better than the F-16 and equivalent to the F-18's ?

What the heck happens when China decides it just wants to produce the J-10 and the Super-10 ? How is pakistan going to fund production of the JF-17 on it's own ?

Why on earth is Pakistan buying a 3 tier airforce ?

And the only news you hear from Pakistan is 'America has agreed to sell us the latest modern systems' I mean what does that mean....F-18 's ? I doubt it. It's just a way to opiate the people

The JF-17 was a great idea but only a fool keeps on gambling when he's lost money

Re: JF-17: New Pics

FreeAsia2000 said:

Well what really concerns me is the idea that JF-17 is 80% equal to the F-16 .. I mean what does that really mean ?

Click to expand...

The statement of "80% of F-16" is myth created by Pakistani forums. The JF-17 is a full-fleged 4th generation air-supeiority fighter that can match the latest F-16 in A2A capabilities.

Why on earth is Pakistan buying a 3 tier airforce ?

Click to expand...

Its buying a fine airforce. They are only forced to buy the J-10 because of its additional A2G capabilities and TVC--all of which come with a low cost.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Indianfighter said:

The statement of "80% of F-16" is myth created by Pakistani forums. The JF-17 is a full-fleged 4th generation air-supeiority fighter that can match the latest F-16 in A2A capabilities.


Its buying a fine airforce. They are only forced to buy the J-10 because of its additional A2G capabilities and TVC--all of which come with a low cost.

Click to expand...

You really need to research more. 80% of F16 was clearly documented in Chinese brochures. It is no myth.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

I have some small questions: is FC-1/JF-17 the second aircraft which is fitted with DSI after the F-35? Any aircraft with DSI? Is DSI a copy right technology of the US? Why don't we hear anything claimed from the US that China copies its technology?