JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Lion]

Even you go into battle field in a whole package, every single jet still needs its radar. The better radar, the more chance to win. Otherwise, u just go into battle with bare hand and wait for the AWACS to do everything for u. Jeezz

As you say, its only more chance. I do not denied the importance of individual aircraft component as they will give a better overall combat abillities. But with other consideration of AWACS ,tatic, RCS and ECM. Individual effort will take a lesser impact on the overall effort. Unlike outright write off of JF-17 chances mention by sinosoldier.

 

[Munir]

Every time one masters certain fields it will adopted to the known designs... Reducing RCS is a must no matter how big the plane is. I am pretty sure the diamond nose reduces the frontal and lower rcs. And most of the improvements of the JF17 are very much related to what the opponent will field. Everyone that knows the JF17 program knows that. So with the opponent fielding better planes it is just a matter of logic to expect PAF to improve the design of the JF17. The first requirement was inhouse spare parts and air superiority fighter with medium range. Then BVR. Then smarter weapons like Brazilian or Pakistani versions. Now we have some more points... Deino is correct on that it is not a stealth design... But it is all about reducing RCS for a 4th (western) generation fighterjet. The lower RCS was in design already added but probably had to evolve before adding into to production...

 

[Totoro]

"diamond nose" doesn't reduce frontal rcs, though it can reduce some lower angle rcs. what it does do is manage rcs returns. Instead of a sizable radar return from a lot of angles perpendicular to the longitudinal curve of the nose (which does not include frontal rcs) it manages the returns so most angles do not give any return, at the expense of several angles (in ideal case 4, but realistically more) giving out a large radar return, larger than any of the angles of "normal" nose would. Portion of radar stealth attained through geometry is exactly this - management of radar returns so most of the returns that would otherwise be millions or spikes/directions get channelled into hundreds of larger spikes which try to avoid returns into directions that would be looked at by radar the most during majority of missions. A large part in radar return management is also mission planning and flight profile planning.

 

[asif iqbal]

And that's what the upgrade scheme will likely be. A little AESA, some EW tweaks, some RAM, and some composites will do wonders for a fighter that is both designed to be versatile and cheap. A PAF official commented that an AESA is currently not planned for PAF variants since the KLJ07 provided positive results, but that doesn't make much sense since there's no way a KLJ07 equipped JF-17 would have any hope of going up against a Su-30MKI or even an AESA equipped MiG-29.

3 Su-30 MKi squadrons lie in the Punjab or Rajasthan, very close to the Pakistani border, Halwara, Jodhpur and Sirsa AFS

The flyng time to reach the border is measured in under 10 minutes and likewise the Pakistani air force bases are located close to the Indian border

When there is a war, and I say when because sooner or later history has showed there always will be conflict in this region

Anyway when there is a war it won't be a long range engagement which gives the advantage to the Sukhoi it will be a close quarters fight, WVR and good old dog fighting which the benefit lies with Pakistan, the turning circle of the JF17 prototype matched that of the F16 hence a very agile fighter

In a close quarters fight the over sized Flanker will not hold any advantage over the Thunder, dog fighting is drilled into every Pakistani fighter pilot from cadet school, over the years PAF has truly mastered the fine art of WVR, and the PAF has some very capable pilots, the ones who will make the difference, that have the magic class as MM Alam, Saiful Azam, Sattar Alvi, Arif Mansoor, Shabaz Khan and the fine man himself Air Marshal Nur Khan, just to name a few

All PAF needs is the opportunity to prove themselves once again, and more pilots will join the ranks of the above, there is nothing in the Indian arsenal that PAF can't handle

 

[kwaigonegin]

3 Su-30 MKi squadrons lie in the Punjab or Rajasthan, very close to the Pakistani border, Halwara, Jodhpur and Sirsa AFS

The flyng time to reach the border is measured in under 10 minutes and likewise the Pakistani air force bases are located close to the Indian border

When there is a war, and I say when because sooner or later history has showed there always will be conflict in this region

Anyway when there is a war it won't be a long range engagement which gives the advantage to the Sukhoi it will be a close quarters fight, WVR and good old dog fighting which the benefit lies with Pakistan, the turning circle of the JF17 prototype matched that of the F16 hence a very agile fighter

In a close quarters fight the over sized Flanker will not hold any advantage over the Thunder, dog fighting is drilled into every Pakistani fighter pilot from cadet school, over the years PAF has truly mastered the fine art of WVR, and the PAF has some very capable pilots, the ones who will make the difference, that have the magic class as MM Alam, Saiful Azam, Sattar Alvi, Arif Mansoor, Shabaz Khan and the fine man himself Air Marshal Nur Khan, just to name a few

All PAF needs is the opportunity to prove themselves once again, and more pilots will join the ranks of the above, there is nothing in the Indian arsenal that PAF can't handle

I agree that PAF pilots are definitely well trained but they may have their hands full when IAF get their hands on the Rafale in the near future.

 

[asif iqbal]

I agree that PAF pilots are definitely well trained but they may have their hands full when IAF get their hands on the Rafale in the near future.

Dassault and HAL still need to come to a agreement over who is going to be responsible for the 108 manufactured Rafales by India, Dassault is not going to take responsibility for them and India won't let this issue slip, hence the delays

Those 108 units won't be built before 2020 and if all goes well which we know it won't the only 18 French built Rafales won't be delivered until 2017 but that will no doubt slip as that deal is not finalised

So that's why there is plenty of time for Pakistan and China to finalise the J10B which in my opinion is a superb aircraft, more than enough to deter the Rafale

 

[Equation]

Dassault and HAL still need to come to a agreement over who is going to be responsible for the 108 manufactured Rafales by India, Dassault is not going to take responsibility for them and India won't let this issue slip, hence the delays

Those 108 units won't be built before 2020 and if all goes well which we know it won't the only 18 French built Rafales won't be delivered until 2017 but that will no doubt slip as that deal is not finalised

So that's why there is plenty of time for Pakistan and China to finalise the J10B which in my opinion is a superb aircraft, more than enough to deter the Rafale

Just curious why is there an issue between Dassault and HAL for building those Rafales? Shouldn't they be anxious and kick start the project?

 

[no_name]

^^^^ India wants HAL to manufacture Rafael, but wants Dassault to be responsible for the fighters (at no extra cost I think).

Feels to me like having your cake and eat it too. Dassault is not willing to trust HAL quality control and workmanship if the Rafaels is to be manufactured by HAL.

A lot of the fighter jets that crashed in the IAF happened so after refit/maintenance work by HAL.

 

[kwaigonegin]

^^^^ India wants HAL to manufacture Rafael, but wants Dassault to be responsible for the fighters (at no extra cost I think).

Feels to me like having your cake and eat it too. Dassault is not willing to trust HAL quality control and workmanship if the Rafaels is to be manufactured by HAL.

A lot of the fighter jets that crashed in the IAF happened so after refit/maintenance work by HAL.

not saying it's untrue but need citation.

 

[no_name]

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NEW DELHI — India’s negotiations with France’s Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

The defense deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France, with the remainder to be produced under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.

The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi. The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.

The defense ministry “completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft,” the newspaper reported, citing sources.

Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers, which are a crucial part of the deal.

The Rafale beat stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the U.S. and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its aging fleet. Its main rival, the Eurofighter, made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.

A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report when contacted by AFP.

The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.

India’s air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.

In other words, India wants HAL to manufacture large number of Rafaels locally, but wants Dassault to be responsible for their delivery. If HAL screws up, Dassault may be dragged through the mud.