Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
Not to China, but to Turkey! a time honored nato member and aspiring member of the EU!
Not to China, but to Turkey! a time honored nato member and aspiring member of the EU!
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
But the trial and test of EJ200 engines on JF-17 needed to be tested in China. Pakistan K-8 is using US honeywell engine with testing and intergratuon trial carried out in China.
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
No confirmation yet. Russian engine sales may have something to do with it - Russia has even publically made some noise about blocking RD-93(JF-17's engine) sales to China to prevent the aircraft from competing with Russian sales(they'd rather sell from the SU-27/MiG-29 family, rather than enable competing JF-17 sales with RD-93).
From another forum, about why China hasn't inducted the JF(also relates to the question of JF-17 sales to other countries:
No confirmation yet. Russian engine sales may have something to do with it - Russia has even publically made some noise about blocking RD-93(JF-17's engine) sales to China to prevent the aircraft from competing with Russian sales(they'd rather sell from the SU-27/MiG-29 family, rather than enable competing JF-17 sales with RD-93).
From another forum, about why China hasn't inducted the JF(also relates to the question of JF-17 sales to other countries:
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
No... J-10 is also using russian engines and Chinese has no problem inducting it. Why do you think there will be a problem inducting FC-1 into service with RD-93? Russian is happy to sell more engines to China for J-10. This can be say about FC-1 too. J-10 is also clear for export which means engine re-export shall not be a problem. The problem is , PLAAF do not deem FC-1 in their future plan. J-10 is a bigger and longer leg plane. Point balnk defence plane is already out of China future air defence plan. Remember China is a HUGE country. It need longer leg plane to execute more flexible plan. FC-1 can hardly fit in this.
The advance canard design gives J-10 the edge over FC-1. Price is not problem with PLAAF. They are loaded with cash now. If they want all J-7 to replace by J-10, by no means. USually domestic produce fighter jet is very cheap compare to export prices. I would not be surprised one J-10 local price is only USD 15 million dollars. That is not hard for PLAAF to replace all J-7 with J-10.
Slow sales of China fighter jet to other foreign customers beside Pakistan may due to AVIC filling large number of order from domestic deal. There is no rush to get foreign deal. Those small foreign countries may even had a hard time convincing AVIC for soft loan and cheaper price which hamper the progress of potential deal since they have a very limited budget for their AF.
No... J-10 is also using russian engines and Chinese has no problem inducting it. Why do you think there will be a problem inducting FC-1 into service with RD-93? Russian is happy to sell more engines to China for J-10. This can be say about FC-1 too. J-10 is also clear for export which means engine re-export shall not be a problem. The problem is , PLAAF do not deem FC-1 in their future plan. J-10 is a bigger and longer leg plane. Point balnk defence plane is already out of China future air defence plan. Remember China is a HUGE country. It need longer leg plane to execute more flexible plan. FC-1 can hardly fit in this.
The advance canard design gives J-10 the edge over FC-1. Price is not problem with PLAAF. They are loaded with cash now. If they want all J-7 to replace by J-10, by no means. USually domestic produce fighter jet is very cheap compare to export prices. I would not be surprised one J-10 local price is only USD 15 million dollars. That is not hard for PLAAF to replace all J-7 with J-10.
Slow sales of China fighter jet to other foreign customers beside Pakistan may due to AVIC filling large number of order from domestic deal. There is no rush to get foreign deal. Those small foreign countries may even had a hard time convincing AVIC for soft loan and cheaper price which hamper the progress of potential deal since they have a very limited budget for their AF.
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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
That might be the case. Russia did play harder on the latest deal for AL-31 engines, raised prices up, Ukraine which is only a sub-contractor, also suggested guarantees be put in place so the engines are for use and not for "copying", and stuff like that. China has come very far with it's own engines, and Russia would want to milk as much $$$ from engine sales as it can, before China doesn't need Russia for anything anymore.
The RD-93 deal also eventually did go through with the Russians as well, but people like Mikhail Pogosyan who are pretty senior in Russia's aeronautics industry, did recommend banning the deal, he said the JF-17's performance is "extremely close" to the MiG-29 but at a much cheaper cost. While allowing RD-93 sales to Pakistan are alright, allowing sales to countries that would have otherwise considered buying Russian jets(if JF-17 wasn't available), might not be alright to the Russians.
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Edit: Here's the "extremely close" JF-17 link
That might be the case. Russia did play harder on the latest deal for AL-31 engines, raised prices up, Ukraine which is only a sub-contractor, also suggested guarantees be put in place so the engines are for use and not for "copying", and stuff like that. China has come very far with it's own engines, and Russia would want to milk as much $$$ from engine sales as it can, before China doesn't need Russia for anything anymore.
The RD-93 deal also eventually did go through with the Russians as well, but people like Mikhail Pogosyan who are pretty senior in Russia's aeronautics industry, did recommend banning the deal, he said the JF-17's performance is "extremely close" to the MiG-29 but at a much cheaper cost. While allowing RD-93 sales to Pakistan are alright, allowing sales to countries that would have otherwise considered buying Russian jets(if JF-17 wasn't available), might not be alright to the Russians.
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Edit: Here's the "extremely close" JF-17 link
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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
I think is the other way round. Russia know WS-10 has already tested on J-10B, there are happy to sell more AL-31FN at reasonable price and they even agreed full documentation and support for China sales which is never heard before in previous deal. This show Russian is desperate to keep China deal.
China is not like India. If you try to milk her, she will ignore you and forget about the deal. IL-76 transport plane is a good example. Of course with recent high inflation, a reasonable price rise is understandable for AL-31FN engine deal.
As for Mikhail Pogosyan , is he bigger than Putin in Russia? In Russia , words of CEO of Sukhoi or MIg counts for zero. What Putin agreed/say is important. Putin is pro-China. He snub India and approve RD-93 engine deal for re export to Pakistan personally, ignore call of RD-93 engine deals to be ban. Putin call the shot. Obvious, security of Russia and strong support from China is far more important than those small small MIg-29 deal which Russia can afford to lose. Klimov so far has no call to ban their engine sales to China and re export to other countries.
I think is the other way round. Russia know WS-10 has already tested on J-10B, there are happy to sell more AL-31FN at reasonable price and they even agreed full documentation and support for China sales which is never heard before in previous deal. This show Russian is desperate to keep China deal.
China is not like India. If you try to milk her, she will ignore you and forget about the deal. IL-76 transport plane is a good example. Of course with recent high inflation, a reasonable price rise is understandable for AL-31FN engine deal.
As for Mikhail Pogosyan , is he bigger than Putin in Russia? In Russia , words of CEO of Sukhoi or MIg counts for zero. What Putin agreed/say is important. Putin is pro-China. He snub India and approve RD-93 engine deal for re export to Pakistan personally, ignore call of RD-93 engine deals to be ban. Putin call the shot. Obvious, security of Russia and strong support from China is far more important than those small small MIg-29 deal which Russia can afford to lose. Klimov so far has no call to ban their engine sales to China and re export to other countries.
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Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
I was not aware of the full documentation, that is interesting. I was judging from news sources like these() that China was apparently "miffed" at some clauses of the deal(or so the media claims). Inflation is also a factor in raising prices, And China really keeps Russia in it's proper place. The Russians do have manipulative practices in many of their deals with everyone(selling used aircraft to Algeria after receiving payment for new hoping they won't notice, hooking Indians on by selling low-priced Kiev-class(older class) carrier then raising the price 4x, doubling the prices of "MKI" Indians are so proud of, etc).
The main question over here is, would Russia really allow RD-93 sales to countries where the JF-17 would compete with Russian aircraft in the local market? According to senior officials like Mikhael Pogosyan, it would be in Russia's interest to prevent JF-17. He has said it's performance is "extremely close" to MiG-29, but price is comparatively less. Given how JF-17 is compatible with the same weapons suite the J-10 has, and weapons like SD-10B can actually fire before getting in range of Russia's R-77 so it is deadlier(-B variant is said to have a range of 100+ km, R-77 does not - also, China is spending alot more in this, and other areas), and can compete with Russia in many of the same markets Russia historically sells to.
Rightnow, Russia does have leverage over the aircraft's sales due to the engines. Many countries have expressed some degree of interest about the JF-17, an Indonesian Minister talked about this aircraft's performance capability roughly at par with older F-16s, even the Turkish Prime Minister mentioned the JF-17(Turkey is considering joining the F/A-50 Korean-American project, Korea's arrangement with USA enforces that F/A-50's performance will not exceed Korea's KF-16s). Pakistani AF officials have talked about up to 8 countries having expressed interest in the aircraft, some even sending their pilots to test-fly the aircraft.
I believe the RD-93 engine would be a problem in some of those sales.
I was not aware of the full documentation, that is interesting. I was judging from news sources like these() that China was apparently "miffed" at some clauses of the deal(or so the media claims). Inflation is also a factor in raising prices, And China really keeps Russia in it's proper place. The Russians do have manipulative practices in many of their deals with everyone(selling used aircraft to Algeria after receiving payment for new hoping they won't notice, hooking Indians on by selling low-priced Kiev-class(older class) carrier then raising the price 4x, doubling the prices of "MKI" Indians are so proud of, etc).
The main question over here is, would Russia really allow RD-93 sales to countries where the JF-17 would compete with Russian aircraft in the local market? According to senior officials like Mikhael Pogosyan, it would be in Russia's interest to prevent JF-17. He has said it's performance is "extremely close" to MiG-29, but price is comparatively less. Given how JF-17 is compatible with the same weapons suite the J-10 has, and weapons like SD-10B can actually fire before getting in range of Russia's R-77 so it is deadlier(-B variant is said to have a range of 100+ km, R-77 does not - also, China is spending alot more in this, and other areas), and can compete with Russia in many of the same markets Russia historically sells to.
Rightnow, Russia does have leverage over the aircraft's sales due to the engines. Many countries have expressed some degree of interest about the JF-17, an Indonesian Minister talked about this aircraft's performance capability roughly at par with older F-16s, even the Turkish Prime Minister mentioned the JF-17(Turkey is considering joining the F/A-50 Korean-American project, Korea's arrangement with USA enforces that F/A-50's performance will not exceed Korea's KF-16s). Pakistani AF officials have talked about up to 8 countries having expressed interest in the aircraft, some even sending their pilots to test-fly the aircraft.
I believe the RD-93 engine would be a problem in some of those sales.
Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
DOn't worry my friend...
Chinese procurement policy is always two pronged ever since 90s.
at least two sources for each critical item.
in this case RD-93 to ensure JF-17's schedule.
and WS-13B to ensure RD-93 don't get critically single sourced.
next time this year PAF prob will start to induct WS-13B powered JF-17s.
DOn't worry my friend...
Chinese procurement policy is always two pronged ever since 90s.
at least two sources for each critical item.
in this case RD-93 to ensure JF-17's schedule.
and WS-13B to ensure RD-93 don't get critically single sourced.
next time this year PAF prob will start to induct WS-13B powered JF-17s.