JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[asif iqbal]

it woud be nice if the WS13 goes on the JF17, it would mean that we have a true independent fighter which we can maintain, overhaul and upgrade ourselves without the consent of otherside countrys

When flying the F16 we have to watch the flying ours, the logistic and spares etc etc when Pakistan was under sanctions the flying hours had dropped dramatically, and during Kargil War they were used with extreme caution and with great care because the F16 was at the time the only top end fighter PAF had and only parts came via Turkey under black market

PAF pilots have mastered WVR combat just like Israeli has mastered BVR combat, for WVR the aircraft goes through extreme stress and fatigue usually needing extensive maintenance and overhaul time, this costs money and alot of it with JF17 we dont need to worry about that because we can do it ourselves at kamra, if we need to change a part we can just replace it or fit a new one, this is the true advantage of a home made fighter or one with the help of a good friend China

top end PAF pilots fly more than 20 hours per month, exceeding 240 per year one of the highest flying times in the world, during war this figure is 4-6 times higher, or even 10 times higher with mid-air refueling, the beauty of the JF17 is that we can do all that without to worry, this is the part most people miss out when they think of home made fighter

 

[plawolf]

You raise an interesting and often ignored point on logistical support there Iqbal. What are Pakistan's plans and efforts to domestically manufacture the weapons used by the JF17 or do they have any plans to integrate indigenous Pakistani weapons on the plane?

As the NATO air war in Libya showed, even a 'limited' air to ground campaign can be extremely taxing on both the spares and munitions inventory. We even have stories of brand new Typhoons being cannibalized to allowed continued operations! And that is a plane that is still in production! Although it should be noted that the reason for that move was probably more down to penny pinching cost savings, and the UK probably could, and wound have ramped up production of key spare parts if there was a direct threat to the UK.

But the point being that while having ample spares to keep planes at their prime is of the utmost import, I would still prefer to have a plane with old parts and plenty of weapons than a plane with all new parts but no missiles to shoot. And in anything short of a full scale war of annexation, I think both India and Pakistan will start to be running low on munitions before they exhaust their spare parts inventories for their planes.

Lastly, while Pakistan's efforts at self-sufficiency is to be applauded and encouraged, care must be exercised when factoring this into consideration under war time conditions, since it is almost certain that the PAF's main aircraft manufacturing and repair facilities would be high-priority targets for the IAF, so how effectively Kamra can keep the PAF supplied with spare parts during an all-out war with India must be questioned.

However, in a way, Pakistan license building a Chinese designed plane may actually work to Pakistan's advantage in this regard, since it can pretty much be taken for granted that China will supply any parts Pakistan would require under such circumstances just as fast as Chinese factories can churn them out.

 

[asif iqbal]

You raise an interesting and often ignored point on logistical support there Iqbal. What are Pakistan's plans and efforts to domestically manufacture the weapons used by the JF17 or do they have any plans to integrate indigenous Pakistani weapons on the plane?
.

It is how these Western companys make so much money after the sales, Dassualt and Lockheed charge alot of money for maintenance, parts and spares, Mirage III has been flying since 1967 with PAF but even today we still order parts from France!

PAC currently has 60% manufacturing capabilitys but this figure will rise to 80-90% by end of next year, Pakistan has dropped all Western opitions that were to be integrated onto the JF17 which says alot about the Chinese systems, and also started assembly for KLJ-10 radar, I think PAF is happy to use all Chinese systems, self-protection jamming pod, WMD-7 day/night targeting pod and the air-to-air missiles

as of now 2 main things are in final stages, firing of C802 anti-ship missile and aerial re-fueling, both will be massive steps towards a fully multi-role fighter

JF17 has been a wonder for Pakistan and a good learning step for Chinese design, input of PAF pilots has created a fully integrated man and machine fighter

In terms of Pakistan facilitys being targeted they are spead out throughout the country, PAF routinely practice landing on motorways and carriageways, they have deep tunnels in mountains and storage facilitys for ammunition and spares are located in many dispersed locations, Pakistan has been at war since its creation so we kind of used to it

 

[Munir]

Pakistan never had a war without western nations boycotting spare parts. In fact, even without war, the western nations have been acting hypocrite cause they suspended everything after Pakistan showed nuclear power. So in fact the JF17 is a blessing during peace and wartime. You can imagine how expensive the outdated F16A spare parts were... So low usage was forced. Now PAF can provide decent fighterjet all the time.

It does provide Pakistan the opportunity to develop parts and weapons. The "durandal" copy, mk82/84 dumb boms, Ra'ad and cluster bomb... Alredy made in Pakistan. And we hopefully will see more developments thanks to the JF17.

 

[asif iqbal]

Pakistan never had a war without western nations boycotting spare parts. In fact, even without war, the western nations have been acting hypocrite cause they suspended everything after Pakistan showed nuclear power. So in fact the JF17 is a blessing during peace and wartime. You can imagine how expensive the outdated F16A spare parts were... So low usage was forced. Now PAF can provide decent fighterjet all the time.

It does provide Pakistan the opportunity to develop parts and weapons. The "durandal" copy, mk82/84 dumb boms, Ra'ad and cluster bomb... Alredy made in Pakistan. And we hopefully will see more developments thanks to the JF17.

actually of all the nations who put sanctions after our nuclear tests France has always been there ready to supply, but then again they would sell to anyone who has $$$, even Mirage 2000 deal was on the tables after Pak nuke tests same for Agusta submarine, but France is expensive and also very fussy with regards ToT

but imagine 250 fighters, the price for maintaining them would be so large if they are sold from foreign western nation, Saudi Typhoon deal for 72 fighter is already $15 billion+

 

[Qasim57]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

@Deino is right, atleast the Turkey discussion is marginally related to JF-17(as long as we're discussing Turkey's prospects of getting the JF-17), but going off on multiple tangents may be a little far.

We should hopefully have a treasure trove of JF-17 images from Dubai's airshow, it's less than a month away. I hope the aircraft gets some interest from the Arabs. Without exception, all of them have either (A) US-origin fleet, most of which are without BVR, comprehensive warfare capabilities. Or (B), outdated Soviet-era fleets(those countries that were in the Russian block). JF-17 would be an inexpensive 4th-Gen fighter with a decent punch. But China/Pakistan may not offer kickbacks that these folks are used to getting from the west(French are notorious for this, and Brits are still investigating Al-Yamamma Panavia Tornado kickbacks from the 80's).

Another factor in JF-17 sales is Russian engines. Russia is not likely to allow engine sales in markets it hopes to sell it's aircraft to, so even if interest is generated in the Arabian neighborhood(which had traditionally been a Russian/Soviet market for decades), the WS-13 alternate-engine programme is likely to be crucial. In one of the Farnborrough interviews, a PAF official had stated that already ~8 countries had expressed interest in the aircraft, the only reason I can logically see preventing/hindering sales is the Russian engine(which has reasons of it's own as well as Indian pressure, even Pakistan's supply of RD-93s was vetoed due to Indians earlier). Mikhail Pogsyan, the director of Sukhoi(as well as playing a role in the parent firm that handles Russian aeronautics exports) already stated publically that the JF-17's performance is close to MiG-29s except JF-17 costs less, and talked about blocking RD-93 sales to 3rd countries. So to me that seems to indicate that WS-13 would be important in getting some independence from Russia.

I hope I didn't go in another different tangent again, but I think this contextual stuff is highly related to the JF-17. Anyways, the Dubai show should be interesting. Something for JF-17 enthusiasts to look forward to. The areas I'm particularly interested in, is the WS-13A/B engine, as well as info on the next batch of 50 JF-17s Pakistan gets and the details about their avionics package upgradation.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

well this Turkish delight has gone on long enough but at the end of the day if Turkey does want more fighters all they need to do is start the production line for more F16s just like they did for 30 more F16 C/D block 52+, Turkish F4s are upgraded in Israel its no big deal

JF17 sucess lies in replacing many thousands of Migs, Su, F4s and F5s, its sucess also lies in it having "no strings attached" selling, i.e. having Chinese engine which is proven in terms of service life and quality

if PAF can set up just a few JF17 equipped and armed with fully indigenous Chinese systems and engine, showcase them to the world, then many countrys will show alot if interest, and no static displays please we need a flying exhibition like at Zhuhai which showed the Thunders termendous maneuverability, if only that was at Farnborough

also downing a few of those Predator drones will help

 

[Qasim57]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Dubai has a static AND flying JF-17 demo, unless there have been some last-minute changes like at the Paris Airshow(but that was due to Indians dangling Rafale purchases in front of the French, Dubai doesn't have complications like that).

Turkey has F-5s that it's looking to replace, JF-17 could be a contender for that, Turkey's Prime Minister publically expressed interest in the JF-17, what bigger proof of Turkish interest do we need. Why do we underestimate the JF-17; of Turkey's other two options, F/A-50's legal agreements with the US already state that the final aircraft won't be better than "KF-16", Korean-assembled F-16s. So if Turks are looking at an inexpensive F-16 like that(to replace their F-4s, F-5s), JF-17's future blocks just might deliver more.

Also please note, Turkey "licence-manufactures" F-16 with heavy TOT, with many sensitive components still manufactured in the US and only assembled in Turkey. This is why US espionage equipment was found embedded in them. We're straying far from the JF-17 topic again, so lets limit this topic here. Turkey can't just make a few F-16s whenever they want, so JF-17 is not competing with that alternative option.

 

[i.e.]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

well this Turkish delight has gone on long enough but at the end of the day if Turkey does want more fighters all they need to do is start the production line for more F16s just like they did for 30 more F16 C/D block 52+, Turkish F4s are upgraded in Israel its no big deal

JF17 sucess lies in replacing many thousands of Migs, Su, F4s and F5s, its sucess also lies in it having "no strings attached" selling, i.e. having Chinese engine which is proven in terms of service life and quality

if PAF can set up just a few JF17 equipped and armed with fully indigenous Chinese systems and engine, showcase them to the world, then many countrys will show alot if interest, and no static displays please we need a flying exhibition like at Zhuhai which showed the Thunders termendous maneuverability, if only that was at Farnborough

also downing a few of those Predator drones will help

Get europeans to sell turkey EJ200 to power their JF-17. and an Selex radar.

all set!

 

[SteelBird]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Get europeans to sell turkey EJ200 to power their JF-17. and an Selex radar.

all set!

You missed something, again, does the Europeans want to sell those sexy things to China and Pakistan?