JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Franklin]

Have PAF JF17s and ZDK-3s ever exercised with other PLAAF AWACS aircraft?

In the event of direct conflict between Pakistan and India, one of the most powerful yet lowkey ways China could massively help the PAF is to fly its own KJ series AWACS along the boarder and datalink that information directly into the PAF battle network.

Such a tactic might even be sufficient to effectively counter any future IAF stealth aircraft, since any such stealths running missions against Pakistan would want to present their best stealth angles at Pakistani defences, but that would then potentially mean they are presenting their flanks to PLAAF AWACS flying in Chinese airspace in Tibet.

With co-operative engagement and long range AAMs, such data sharing could massively tip the balance of any fight in the PAF’s favour and might even be more beneficial to Pakistan than direct Chinese involvement in any such conflict.

I don't think its a good idea for China to be so directly involved in any India Pakistan conflict. China could help Pakistan by a military buildup along the China India border to pin down Indian assets in the east so that India will be forced to fight with one hand tight behind its back. This is what happened in the Kargil Conflict in 1999. China can also provide more discreet aid to Pakistan like satellite surveillance data.

 

[MastanKhan]

Have PAF JF17s and ZDK-3s ever exercised with other PLAAF AWACS aircraft?

In the event of direct conflict between Pakistan and India, one of the most powerful yet lowkey ways China could massively help the PAF is to fly its own KJ series AWACS along the boarder and datalink that information directly into the PAF battle network.

Such a tactic might even be sufficient to effectively counter any future IAF stealth aircraft, since any such stealths running missions against Pakistan would want to present their best stealth angles at Pakistani defences, but that would then potentially mean they are presenting their flanks to PLAAF AWACS flying in Chinese airspace in Tibet.

With co-operative engagement and long range AAMs, such data sharing could massively tip the balance of any fight in the PAF’s favour and might even be more beneficial to Pakistan than direct Chinese involvement in any such conflict.

Hi,

There was an exercise before feb last year in pakistan where Paf pitche the JF17's---Mirages and F7PG's against chinese J15's JH7A's J10 and surveillance aircrafts from both sides..

Prior to that--the exercise was held in china with same aircraft---.

Then after feb last year another exercise was held between the two air forces---I believe this was in china.

So---basically 3 exercises in the last two years with JF17's from Paf---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Haha ZeEa5kPul sorry I did not mean you at all! The Chinese chauvinist part was just my observation from PDF where some members go on the offensive and reciprocate the arrogance many Pakistani, Turkish, and Indian chauvinists hold which is expected and understandable of course.

Freer and more open are one way to describe it. Other adjectives can include chaotic, disorganised, chauvinistic, tribal, unintelligent. I'd prefer moderation and a clean environment which STILL allows for all sorts of opinions and perspectives. The discourse between "opposing sides" on SDF is undeniably better quality than PDF. Anyway apologies for off topic talk.

Hi,

The discourse on Sino Def is worthless here---. Mostly techies with no experience in war yapping around here with sharp tongues without any tactical or strategic experience of war and power positioning---.

Here the big thing is " provide me a link "---like the world defense equipment and weapons dealing is done in public---. Oh yeah---here is a link for this under the table deal and please post it on sino def forum so that people can believe you---.

At PDF---if you are military---you will find gems hidden in all that cluster---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok, so how do you encounter rafale, seems Pakistan has no solution.

Hi,

One at a time and sometimes two---. That is how the Rafale will be dealt with---by the Paf.

 

[asif iqbal]

Hi,



Here the big thing is " provide me a link "---like the world defense equipment and weapons dealing is done in public---. Oh yeah---here is a link for this under the table deal and please post it on sino def forum so that people can believe you---.

---.

I laughed so much at this

 

[ougoah]

Hi,

The discourse on Sino Def is worthless here---. Mostly techies with no experience in war yapping around here with sharp tongues without any tactical or strategic experience of war and power positioning---.

Here the big thing is " provide me a link "---like the world defense equipment and weapons dealing is done in public---. Oh yeah---here is a link for this under the table deal and please post it on sino def forum so that people can believe you---.

At PDF---if you are military---you will find gems hidden in all that cluster---.

I laughed so much at this

LOL I'm not one of those provide me a link guys. But there is a place for calling people out when they make huge claims like Pakistan can get whatever it wants from Chinese arsenal free of charge. That makes me laugh so much. No doubt there is a huge depth of Chinese military assistance when it comes to financing! But this does not equate to Pakistan can help itself to Chinese J-20s, AShBM, ICBMs, hypersonic weapons, Type 055 etc.

As for PDF... yeah there are heaps of people who actually share good pics and come out with LEGITIMATE news. But in all my years reading PDF, only a few Chinese members (may be government or insiders) have issued some hints that PROVED to be true. Whereas I have found many a Pakistani member there claiming to be big shot gov / insiders but time and time again they've been proven WRONG and time and time again they keep coming back with BS. Perfect example of this is you MK. Big claims, no evidence except for the usual shush you're not military and I'm a big shot insider. Even many PDF members agree on this point. You are certainly vocal in your criticism of Pakistani government and JF-17 performance until the day after Indian strikes.

 

[plawolf]

Hi,

There was an exercise before feb last year in pakistan where Paf pitche the JF17's---Mirages and F7PG's against chinese J15's JH7A's J10 and surveillance aircrafts from both sides..

Prior to that--the exercise was held in china with same aircraft---.

Then after feb last year another exercise was held between the two air forces---I believe this was in china.

So---basically 3 exercises in the last two years with JF17's from Paf---.

Interesting, thanks.

Something to note is that it is never a simple case of force-on-force DACT training during such exercises. Yes, you will get classic
adversarial DACT, but just as much, if not more so of the exercises would be focused on joint operations and inter-operability.

So usually you will have mixed formations of aircraft from both airforces going up against each other; and conduction joint strike operations etc.

So, you can have your basic entry level exercise whereby AWACS from both sides control and vector in these joint formations, all the way up to data linked co-operative engagements.

The big questions is at what level these past exercises have managed to reach, but I suspect that this is not something we are ever likely to find out in open sourced material.

The most obvious reason would be for operational surprise and plausible deniability on China’s side if PLAAF AWACS were to provide off board targeting data for PAF assets during live combat against the IAF.

 

[Tam]

Interesting, thanks.

Something to note is that it is never a simple case of force-on-force DACT training during such exercises. Yes, you will get classic
adversarial DACT, but just as much, if not more so of the exercises would be focused on joint operations and inter-operability.

So usually you will have mixed formations of aircraft from both airforces going up against each other; and conduction joint strike operations etc.

So, you can have your basic entry level exercise whereby AWACS from both sides control and vector in these joint formations, all the way up to data linked co-operative engagements.

The big questions is at what level these past exercises have managed to reach, but I suspect that this is not something we are ever likely to find out in open sourced material.

The most obvious reason would be for operational surprise and plausible deniability on China’s side if PLAAF AWACS were to provide off board targeting data for PAF assets during live combat against the IAF.

The problem with that is that, given some basic EW competence, the Indian side would be able to detect the PLAAF AWACS emissions and identify it to at least something that does not belong to Pakistan, and can geolocate the source. It won't take long to catch the hand in the cookie jar if you know what I mean.

 

[plawolf]

The problem with that is that, given some basic EW competence, the Indian side would be able to detect the PLAAF AWACS emissions and identify it to at least something that does not belong to Pakistan, and can geolocate the source. It won't take long to catch the hand in the cookie jar if you know what I mean.

Well, let’s just got the sake of argument assume EW competence on the Indian part, it’s still nothing like as simple as you seem to think.

If it was that simple to track datalinks, the whole stealth concept would not work. Fifth gens would be able to be located and tracked via their datalinks.

Modern datalinks put huge emphasis on countering even being detected and identified as being datalinks.

You would need to be using seriously obsolete equipment, and/or be making some seriously silly mistakes to allow opfor to geo-locate you via datalinks.

At best, the Indians might be able to detect radio-wave emissions from PLAAF AWACS going into Pakistani airspace, but it would be a major coup for them to be able to ‘prove’ much beyond that. They should certainly not get anything that the PLAAF could not simply brush off with a generic statement like, ‘it’s an AWACS, of course it’s going to be emitting radio waves all over the place!’

And even if they could ‘prove’ that PLAAF AWACS are feeding data to the PAF, well what off it? China is breaking zero international laws flying AWACS in its own airspace; and it can communicate anything it wants to Pakistan.

Short of declaring war on China, India is going to have to just lump it.

 

[Deino]

Please back to the topic ... a potential war between China and India has NOTHING to do with the JF-17.