JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Zahid]

The idea of using MAWS to substitute for IRST makes no sense, that’s like suggesting using burglar alarms as spotting scopes. The systems are designed for very different purposes with hugely different operating ranges, resolution and pretty much every other performance metric. I would say that if another aircraft is close enough to register on your MAWS, it is also well within MK1 eyeball detection range.

The decision to forgot IRST is, like all such decisions, a calculated compromise.

I am guessing that the PAF is:
- balancing in favour of networked capabilities rather than single platform capability.
- being disciplined with weight to maintain kinetic performance
- being budget focused and probably already shifting increasing amount of funds towards next gen options
- with PAKFA DOA and India going for Rafales, the need and justification for fleet wide IRST is somewhat diminished, especially with the AESA of the BLK3 potentially already covering the intended role of IRST with its LPI mode.

Is it a perfect solution? Obviously not since PLAAF J10Cs have similar if not better MAWS and AESA but also IRST. But the J10 is a much bigger aircraft, and the PLAAF has much deeper pockets.

From PAF’s specific POV, when fighting a defensive war over its own airspace, with both friendly AWACS and ground based radars networked in, and racing an adversary flying primarily Flankers with their huge RCS and other none LO conventional fighters, they may feel that they are unlikely to miss any IAF assets coming in, and the whole battle space would be so active that everyone RWR will probably all be screaming nonstop from the get go, as such it’s just not worth the performance, and more importantly, the budget sacrifices to get IRST.

Personally, I feel that is a mistake, but I can see why they would make they choice.

Yeah, this makes sense.

If there is no over-riding need to have IRST, then why waste resources on it. But there are three subsequent issues:

1. What happens with 5th Gen (4th Gen Chinese system) joins IAF? Would (by then) 200+ JF-17 be OK without it?
2. Following from #1 above, would there not be some provision designed into the airframe to have IRST when it is important to have?
3. As is likely, and so JF-17 operates in mixed packages, which PAF aircraft would have IRST installed?

Chances are that we may see J-10 CE in PAF colors, because it would bring additional capabilities.

 

[ougoah]

I think forgoing the IRST was done to control costs. They must have decided that an IRST doesn't add as much capability for the money compared to another area that could use investment and improvements. Simple as that. Honestly IRSTs onboard NATO fighters have also been quite a high end upgrade. Most NATO fighters didn't feature IRST when the Russians were basically making them standard features on frontline fighters. I don't recall 90s and 00s Harriers, Typhoons (not all early variants had this), F-16, F-15, F-18, F-22, Tornado (again not all variants) featured them when Russian Chinese frontline fighters received their's (J-11b, J-10b) or had them for years.

NATO relied on fighters with IRST and pods if it was deemed necessary. They also didn't seem to consider IRST onboard every frontline fighter as a must have either. China I think had a lot of influence from Russian fighter design and combat doctrines. PAF operates with a different set of problems to overcome compared to PLAAF and RuAF. So giving the IRST a miss may not just be an economic consideration.

Yeah, this makes sense.

If there is no over-riding need to have IRST, then why waste resources on it. But there are three subsequent issues:

1. What happens with 5th Gen (4th Gen Chinese system) joins IAF? Would (by then) 200+ JF-17 be OK without it?
2. Following from #1 above, would there not be some provision designed into the airframe to have IRST when it is important to have?
3. As is likely, and so JF-17 operates in mixed packages, which PAF aircraft would have IRST installed?

Chances are that we may see J-10 CE in PAF colors, because it would bring additional capabilities.

Which 5th gen will IAF induct? It's not even clear let alone on the horizon. The likely candidates are AMCA and Su-57 off the shelf. AMCA discussions claim 2030 prototype timeframe but if that target is met, the complete production version will take close to another decade along with training etc. Two decades later, PAF may as well look into buying 6th gens. Su-57 can be sold to India as much as it can be sold to Pakistan. It Pakistan absolutely needs to match Indian procurements 1:1, India can and will outspend Pakistan. Therefore Pakistan's strategies must be more asymmetric.

 

[plawolf]

Yeah, this makes sense.

If there is no over-riding need to have IRST, then why waste resources on it. But there are three subsequent issues:

1. What happens with 5th Gen (4th Gen Chinese system) joins IAF? Would (by then) 200+ JF-17 be OK without it?
2. Following from #1 above, would there not be some provision designed into the airframe to have IRST when it is important to have?
3. As is likely, and so JF-17 operates in mixed packages, which PAF aircraft would have IRST installed?

Chances are that we may see J-10 CE in PAF colors, because it would bring additional capabilities.

I think the PLAAF would have shared some of their findings from conventional vs J20 DACT conclusions, which is that if you are facing proper 5th gens, you are in deep trouble before a shot has even been fired if you only have 4th gens yourself.

Relying on IRST to try to counter enemy 5th gens is just not viable. It’s obviously better than nothing, but still massively sub-optimal.

I actually take the lack of IRST as a potential positive, because it indirectly suggest the PAF is not even considering needing to counter enemy 5th gens with JF17s. That means they are seriously looking into follow up options.

I would say that the PAF really cannot afford to fall behind generationally compared to the IAF, so that needs to be the focus because the PAF can never hope to compete on numbers.

As such, I think the PAF should bypass their J10 and go straight into 5th gen as their JF17 follow on.

FC31 is a relatively lower risk and potentially quicker option, but I think the PAF really prefer CAC, and I think the PLANAF is also serious about a carrier borne 5th gen for all their current and planned carriers. As such, I have a feeling CAC is also working behind the scenes on a proposal bid for that, which the PAF would most likely prefer over the FC31 on reputation and past experience alone.

Either way, I can see such a lower-end Chinese 5th gen as China’s F35, so foreign parties like the PAF might be able to sign on at developmental stage and become launch customers alongside the PLA.

 

[ougoah]

For such a Chinese JSF project, it'll need many wealthy partners. Pakistan as the only partner won't bring about a high capability fighter unless China puts in the rest of the funding. Which is nothing like what JSF was. Either China foots the development bill entirely or they spend a small fraction of the cost of JSF and get a fraction of the capabilities.

The correct approach for Pakistan's own interest would be to buy J-31/J-35 off the shelf if and when it gets developed. Failing that, the Su-57. Problem with that is Russians may not be as friendly to Pakistan as China would be and the IAF may eventually be using Su-57 as well. I do not believe Pakistan can develop and field an equally capable 5th gen fighter on its own before 2040. I doubt Turkey can do it either without significant foreign sourced equipment, parts, and expertise because money is being spent in Syria and Libya... then there's Greece they are in conflict with. Doesn't look they're going to be winning the lottery like Norway and UK in the 80s either.

By the time these KFX, TFX, AMCA, AZM fighters actually get fielded, 6th gen prototypes will be flying. So for Pakistan they can pour money they don't really have into a project that returns nothing! It's not like AZM will get bought up in the hundreds by Turkey. Pakistan has nukes so its survival is not an issue. Better that money get spent in wiser directions to be honest and if there is ever an approaching need for 5th gen fighters, China will no doubt help out. I'm going to guess that J-20 will be exportable some time in the future if and when such needs are really apparent.

If PLAN is actually going with the J-35, then it's a sure thing and possibly something which may be available for export after PLAN numbers are met. Not impossible that such a fighter may get an air superiority/multirole (non-carrier) variant just for export. After all there seem to be a future demand for 5th gen fighters since F-35s are prohibitively expensive financially and politically for most countries. Su-57 would be the only real alternative.

 

[BoggedDown]

For such a Chinese JSF project, it'll need many wealthy partners. Pakistan as the only partner won't bring about a high capability fighter unless China puts in the rest of the funding. Which is nothing like what JSF was. Either China foots the development bill entirely or they spend a small fraction of the cost of JSF and get a fraction of the capabilities.

I think the most optimal for PAF would be a scale down in size and range of J20, a single engine (in the beginning WS10B or whatever the current engine of J20 and ultimately WS-15 when ready) medium weight stealth air superiority fighter with attack as secondary role, little bit bigger that current J10C or similar size but greater range. So you can think it as a hybrid of J10C and J20A, a scale up of J10C by adding stealth feature + internal weapons bay (4 BVR+2 WVR or 2 BVR + 2 AGM +2 WVR ) or a scale down J20A with a single engine, whichever option is easy. In my opinion CAC can build it quite easily with very short time and reasonable cost as all of the technologies already exists from J20A and J10C program, nothing much new need to be invented here. Of course as parameters changes it will be ground up as a new aircraft design, development and testing wise but all subcomponents should be reused with from existing programs as much as possible

 

[Deino]

Guys ... are we still in the JF-17 thread or is this ongoing discussion more related on the PAF's future needs, what-if projects and political diemnsions?

 

[Mohsin77]

The lack of an integrated IRST on the Block III makes more sense now, thanks guys. If it helps the PAF finish off the Thunder platform ASAP and redirect focus on Project Azm, it's a worthy sacrifice.

p.s. Interesting point about CAC, the PAF does have a history of sticking with a known company whenever possible (e.g. P&W motors versus GE on our new Vipers).

 

[BoggedDown]

The lack of an integrated IRST on the Block III makes more sense now, thanks guys. If it helps the PAF finish off the Thunder platform ASAP and redirect focus on Project Azm, it's a worthy sacrifice.

p.s. Interesting point about CAC, the PAF does have a history of sticking with a known company whenever possible (e.g. P&W motors versus GE on our new Vipers).

In my humble opinion AZM is just technical study to understand 5th generation aircraft. PAF does not have fund, technology or capability to build a 5th generation aircraft by itself. It either have to collaborate with China for joint development (meaning setting requirements and priorities and small enhancements here and there by integration some specific stuff from non chinese sources) and later inhouse manufacturing a la JF17 or buy a readymade aircraft from Turkey. So a medium weight single engine stealth fighter project with CAC is what PAF at best can have for a quantity of 100+ pieces. If Turkish TF-X project get successful in future, PAF may acquire 3-4 dozens to keep its touch with western aircrafts as replacements of F16s.

 

[Brumby]

The lack of an integrated IRST on the Block III makes more sense now, thanks guys. If it helps the PAF finish off the Thunder platform ASAP and redirect focus on Project Azm, it's a worthy sacrifice.

p.s. Interesting point about CAC, the PAF does have a history of sticking with a known company whenever possible (e.g. P&W motors versus GE on our new Vipers).

There are a number of good reasons of not adopting IRST in Block 3 but frankly IMO, funding sacrifice for Project AZM is not one of them because the nexus is too premature given where AZM is at currently.

I don't understand the reasoning behind the need for IRST especially the argument against stealth targets. Firstly there are no existential stealth threats against the PAF in the immediate or medium horizon. Secondly, how IRST could actually be meaningfully deployed is never articulated.because there are several different technological levels in IRST adoption. The current IRST detection range against frontal aspect is between 35 to 70 kms depending on the IR technological adoption but these numbers come with it a range of unknown assumptions and issues which are seldom acknowledged. For example, the OLS-35 in the SU-35 is a scanning IRST and probably 15 years behind in IR technology and has a frontal detection range of 35 kms.


In contrast, PIRATE which is adopted in the Eurotyphoon uses staring IRST and reportedly has a frontal detection range of 70 kms.

The question is if the JF-17 was getting IRST what technological IR was it going to get because IRST adoption brings with it cost and the significant processing burden that comes with such technology? More importantly, how could the PAF benefit from it given the cost and the technological limitation? The biggest drawback of IRST is that its search function is time consuming because of its very narrow FOV and long range search capability is therefore inefficient. Western platforms use IRST as an integral piece of sensor fusion and the search area its cued to a more narrow box.

 

[Haris Ali]

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My main JF-17 concern is the Klimov RD93 power plant. Russia might object to the export to some countries. Let’s hope China can continue the supply line and even come up with a more capable alternative.

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I’ve been incredibly fortunate to watch the JF-17 evolve close up since it arrived in Pak in 2007. The Block 3 with new AESA and targeting pod wizardry with AAR is different class. Then there is the JF-17B dual seater now with a competent sim system.