JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hi,

I would highly recommend you reading military history---.

All militaries have hyped up their weapons---weapons systems---troops---special strike capabilities to create fear or uncertainty at the least in the minds of the enemy---. Sometimes it is a hype---and sometimes it is the truth---the enemy only finds out when it is too late---just like the indian air force---.

When Mr. Iqbal talks about the JF17's capabilities---it is by default primarily based on the aircraft competing in the ARENA---.

You have always shown PREJUDICE against the abilities of the JF17 / Paf---.

So---either you discriminate against this service or are intentionally trying to put it down so that those defending it leak sensitive information to prove their point---for that I don't blame you---because it is a tactic used often.

To run the board and make it look credible---the information has to be sensational.

But otoh when you are referred to a youtube interview of a Retd PAF Air Vice Marshall and he states that the J20 would be available to us if we showed interest in it and if it had a second seat---we would have flown it---. And your response was on the sarcastic side.

I told you about 3-4 years ago---J20 is available to pakistan and a whole plethora of table jockeys attacked me ( which is not surprising )---someone mentioned if nuc subs were available to pakistan and what not---pakistan has no money to buy weapons ( from where the money came for 8 submarines and 4 type 054 frigates and a plethora of orders to Turkey and Holland from navy vessels to coast guard vessels---who knows ).

And I replied if pakistan needs it---it will get it---if china has it---.

The answer was given to all the nay sayers by Pres Xi---when he asked IK a short time ago---what do you want from us---.

I had told you guys---pakistan military never asks for something outrageous---it always stays within it capability blanket---stays with something that it can operate maintain and manage to the best of its abilities and capabilities---.

Pak military firmly believe in a stair step progression in inducting weapons and weapons systems and not buying weapons FOR SHOW---.

Our current type of aircraft has taken charge of the skies---we don't need to up the ante and for what---. The only issue we have is less aircraft in numbers---.


... as a Pakistani, I apologize for the behavior of my fellow countrymen, like this guy above and his friends.

I assure you, not all Pakistanis are like this lolz. There just seems to be an inordinate amount of this particular variety on military forums for some reason.
 
Last edited:

Brumby

Major
Fair point about the Eireye's range; however, latency shouldn't be a bottleneck for new gen datalinks. Even Elon Musk's new satellite internet is advertising sub 20ms latency. If it's good enough for playing counterstrike, it's more then enough for any Air Force! lolz

In order to put things in perspective, Link 16 which is based on Time Division Multi Access (TDMA) technology has a 30 ms latency because its transmission is time slotted In contrast, TTNT has a 2 ms latency. Not much is known publicly about TTNT but I suspect it is built on the newer Code Division Multi Access (CDMA) technology which is not time or frequency limited.

I think there is too much fixation on AESA's range and its potential pairing to the PL-15 on the JF-17. AESA technology brings a lot more to the table than simply range detection extension. The other equally important consideration include :

(1)Lower maintenance, higher durability and removal of risk of single point of failure with the radar;
(2)The operational benefit to seamlessly interleave between air to air and air to ground mode especially given that the JF-17 is a multi purpose platform;
(3)Enhancing the JF-17's terrain following capacity through the AESA's real time ground mapping capability;
(4)The radar frequency bandwidth will automatically increased by anything from 2 to 5 times by the technological adoption;
(5)Jam resistance capacity is correspondingly enhanced through (4);
(6)The ability to operate in LPI/LPD mode. This outcome is from (4), (5), software modulation of waveform, PRF, variable power management of beams, frequency hopping and the adoption of spread spectrum; and
(7)The capability to enhance communication through directed beaming and the capacity to adopt EA

There is one more area that we have not discussed which is a necessary upgrade pathway in the JF-17 Block 3 and that is ECM. AESA technology will invariably make most legacy ECM systems obsolete because of LPD and LPI features Effective radar range is a function of how competent is your adversary's ECM capabilities. I will defer this to another time.

.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
In order to put things in perspective, Link 16 which is based on Time Division Multi Access (TDMA) technology has a 30 ms latency because its transmission is time slotted In contrast, TTNT has a 2 ms latency. Not much is known publicly about TTNT but I suspect it is built on the newer Code Division Multi Access (CDMA) technology which is not time or frequency limited.

Whoa... 2ms latency ?!? I think we're gonna need Huawei 5G phones installed on those Thunders

I think there is too much fixation on AESA's range and its potential pairing to the PL-15 on the JF-17. AESA technology brings a lot more to the table than simply range detection extension. The other equally important consideration include :

(1)Lower maintenance, higher durability and removal of risk of single point of failure with the radar;
(2)The operational benefit to seamlessly interleave between air to air and air to ground mode especially given that the JF-17 is a multi purpose platform;
(3)Enhancing the JF-17's terrain following capacity through the AESA's real time ground mapping capability;
(4)The radar frequency bandwidth will automatically increased by anything from 2 to 5 times by the technological adoption;
(5)Jam resistance capacity is correspondingly enhanced through (4);
(6)The ability to operate in LPI/LPD mode. This outcome is from (4), (5), software modulation of waveform, PRF, variable power management of beams, frequency hopping and the adoption of spread spectrum; and
(7)The capability to enhance communication through directed beaming and the capacity to adopt EA

There is one more area that we have not discussed which is a necessary upgrade pathway in the JF-17 Block 3 and that is ECM. AESA technology will invariably make most legacy ECM systems obsolete because of LPD and LPI features Effective radar range is a function of how competent is your adversary's ECM capabilities. I will defer this to another time.

I agree. Let's please stop talking about the PL-15 on the JF-17 until there is some credible source for it.

As for the AESA's capability, it's a beast. And we need to onboard it ASAP on the Block III, so that we can move on to Project Azm already.

And so it all comes back to the problem of the flight test delay of the Block III lolz... we have come full circle
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
@MastanKhan Indeed if Pakistan can get anything it wants from China, it still has to pay for it. Otherwise why wouldn't Pakistan have chosen J-20 already? Indeed if that is too obvious, why not J-10C, J-16, or numerous other UAVs. They can fire the PL-15 and have better radars. Why contract out the development of blk 3 JF-17 when clearly superior fighters are available? Therefore it must still cost money. So even if PAF can receive as many J-20s as it wants (lol), can if afford to maintain the fleet? Or is China supposed to foot the bill?

Let's try to be mindful of a few things, China is rushing to get as many J-20s into service as quickly as possible even with less than ideal engines. It will not sell the J-20 until it's got 6th gen prototypes flying. Japan and South Korea are receiving F-35s. So is the USAF and USN based around China. It is surrounded by 5th gen fighters including F-22 and while the Su-57 won't be flying against PLAAF in Russian colours, it may be in IAF (and perhaps other) colours down the line. Even selling J-20 to Pakistan is at the expense of PLAAF.

Pakistan can choose to work with SAC to fully develop the FC-31. Maybe PLAN has already selected this fighter and the work will be done. PAF will just need it optimised for their airforce. That's if anything a more appropriate 5th gen fighter for PAF. It's weight and range and more suitable if the developers of the WS-19 can give it >1 loaded T:W.
 

timepass

Brigadier
@MastanKhan Indeed if Pakistan can get anything it wants from China, it still has to pay for it. Otherwise why wouldn't Pakistan have chosen J-20 already? Indeed if that is too obvious, why not J-10C, J-16, or numerous other UAVs. They can fire the PL-15 and have better radars. Why contract out the development of blk 3 JF-17 when clearly superior fighters are available? Therefore it must still cost money. So even if PAF can receive as many J-20s as it wants (lol), can if afford to maintain the fleet? Or is China supposed to foot the bill?

Let's try to be mindful of a few things, China is rushing to get as many J-20s into service as quickly as possible even with less than ideal engines. It will not sell the J-20 until it's got 6th gen prototypes flying. Japan and South Korea are receiving F-35s. So is the USAF and USN based around China. It is surrounded by 5th gen fighters including F-22 and while the Su-57 won't be flying against PLAAF in Russian colours, it may be in IAF (and perhaps other) colours down the line. Even selling J-20 to Pakistan is at the expense of PLAAF.

Pakistan can choose to work with SAC to fully develop the FC-31. Maybe PLAN has already selected this fighter and the work will be done. PAF will just need it optimised for their airforce. That's if anything a more appropriate 5th gen fighter for PAF. It's weight and range and more suitable if the developers of the WS-19 can give it >1 loaded T:W.

Would like to shade some light on some of your highlighted points;
  1. It happened to me when last year I quoted that soon Pakistan will have 054As & at very same time several members jumped on me that it would not be possible as its PLAN's prime FFGs & China can't export.
  2. J 20 - Agreed, PAF or Pakistan can't afford financially but that doesn't mean it's not available for Pakistan.
  3. J 10C - Lovely bird but as I said earlier PAF is waiting for (so Called - D version with CFTs/New power plant/2 additional hard points on wing tips), I know lot of members will say there nothing such existing but as per PAF circle rumors such class is under development.
  4. J 16 - for the time being it not fits in PAF doctrine but don't know about future.
  5. JF 17 B3 - Because it's based on a mature platform will give more or less same capabilities of J10C, hence cost effective in comparison of J10C.
  6. FC 31 - PAF already started their own 5th generation project named AZM, which IMO based on FC 31.

PS: we need to understand the PAF doctrine which is India based, hence;
  • For M2Ks/MIG 29s/JAUGs/MIG 21s - JF 17s (all BLKs)
  • For MKIs/Rafales - F16s (MLUs/BLK 52s + PAF is further looking to acquire some additional units) also J10D when it comes.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Would like to shade some light on some of your highlighted points;
  1. It happened to me when last year I quoted that soon Pakistan will have 054As & at very same time several members jumped on me that it would not be possible as its PLAN's prime FFGs & China can't export.
  2. J 20 - Agreed, PAF or Pakistan can't afford financially but that doesn't mean it's not available for Pakistan.
  3. J 10C - Lovely bird but as I said earlier PAF is waiting for (so Called - D version with CFTs/New power plant/2 additional hard points on wing tips), I know lot of members will say there nothing such existing but as per PAF circle rumors such class is under development.
  4. J 16 - for the time being it not fits in PAF doctrine but don't know about future.
  5. JF 17 B3 - Because it's based on a mature platform will give more or less same capabilities of J10C, hence cost effective in comparison of J10C.
  6. FC 31 - PAF already started their own 5th generation project named AZM, which IMO based on FC 31.

PS: we need to understand the PAF doctrine which is India based, hence;
  • For M2Ks/MIG 29s/JAUGs/MIG 21s - JF 17s (all BLKs)
  • For MKIs/Rafales - F16s (MLUs/BLK 52s + PAF is further looking to acquire some additional units) also J10D when it comes.

Certainly fine and believable but some have are convinced they know which is different from I feel. If you guys have it on genuinely good authority from both official Pakistani AND Chinese sources in the claims about J-20 being available, then sure we'd all welcome that information. But to just say "trust me on this one" by just a gut feeling or some retired folks who do not have a proven track record for accurate prediction and being current insiders and decision makers, then I'm skeptical. Especially when the claims are big. I've said it already, CAC can double their J-20 production rate and PLAAF will still be jumping at every single unit produced as soon as it leaves the factory. There is simply no room to sell them even if PAF can pay double the price PLAAF is paying. PLAAF will happily outbid PAF to get J-20 priority delivery and pay a premium to receive every single unit produced. Of course this isn't how the military and MIC works in China so that's not a possibility. Even the US to this day will not sell a single F-22 used or restarted production line no matter how much Japan begs to pay for the privilege.

I don't recall anyone doubting 054A sales. Maybe there were a few skeptical but that's hardly unbelievable. After all frigates have a far greater depth of modularity without completely killing utility unlike a fighter. J-20 has one AESA radar, if China sells it, they won't want to redevelop a completely different unit just to keep the Chinese one hidden. A frigate and its subsystems are not at the cutting edge of warship technology. The comparison is not appropriate. Also I've personally always believed 054A would be exported. It holds nothing in terms of confidential or sensitive technology. It's also quite an old ship now. Even Chinese coastguards are equipped with the same hull albeit different sensors. PLAN itself has stopped 054A introduction for some time iirc. J-20 is just going into PLAAF now. If 055 gets sold in its entirety with most of the same subsystems as the PLAN version, then that can be used as good supporting evidence for the claim.

J-10D speculation sounds like blk 3 speculation. I really don't know where so many Pakistani military observers/enthusiasts like making confident guesses. Sure everyone is bound to get some well educated guesses right like AESA in blk 3 but come on. There is zero hint there'd be a J-10D at this point, much less its details like CFT, more hardpoints, and a new engine. It's nice to imagine, something I do all the time but let's not convince ourselves these imaginary things are 100% certainties.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Hi,

I would highly recommend you reading military history---.

All militaries have hyped up their weapons---weapons systems---troops---special strike capabilities to create fear or uncertainty at the least in the minds of the enemy---. Sometimes it is a hype---and sometimes it is the truth---the enemy only finds out when it is too late---just like the indian air force---.

When Mr. Iqbal talks about the JF17's capabilities---it is by default primarily based on the aircraft competing in the ARENA---.

You have always shown PREJUDICE against the abilities of the JF17 / Paf---.

So---either you discriminate against this service or are intentionally trying to put it down so that those defending it leak sensitive information to prove their point---for that I don't blame you---because it is a tactic used often.

To run the board and make it look credible---the information has to be sensational.

But otoh when you are referred to a youtube interview of a Retd PAF Air Vice Marshall and he states that the J20 would be available to us if we showed interest in it and if it had a second seat---we would have flown it---. And your response was on the sarcastic side.

I told you about 3-4 years ago---J20 is available to pakistan and a whole plethora of table jockeys attacked me ( which is not surprising )---someone mentioned if nuc subs were available to pakistan and what not---pakistan has no money to buy weapons ( from where the money came for 8 submarines and 4 type 054 frigates and a plethora of orders to Turkey and Holland from navy vessels to coast guard vessels---who knows ).

And I replied if pakistan needs it---it will get it---if china has it---.

The answer was given to all the nay sayers by Pres Xi---when he asked IK a short time ago---what do you want from us---.

I had told you guys---pakistan military never asks for something outrageous---it always stays within it capability blanket---stays with something that it can operate maintain and manage to the best of its abilities and capabilities---.

Pak military firmly believe in a stair step progression in inducting weapons and weapons systems and not buying weapons FOR SHOW---.

Our current type of aircraft has taken charge of the skies---we don't need to up the ante and for what---. The only issue we have is less aircraft in numbers---.

Similar to your "brilliant" post at the PDF: I really have no idea why you are constantly repeating this nonsense and seemingly boasting about being right ... the only one who continues to undermine his reliability and make himself ridiculous is you, but you either do not seem to see it or to actually believe this nonsense be it "Pakistan can get everything and your FC-31 copy claims.

I'm sorry, but regardless how many hommies at the PDF or anywhere cheer you, that still does not make this nonsense a fact.
 

timepass

Brigadier
Certainly fine and believable but some have are convinced they know which is different from I feel. If you guys have it on genuinely good authority from both official Pakistani AND Chinese sources in the claims about J-20 being available, then sure we'd all welcome that information. But to just say "trust me on this one" by just a gut feeling or some retired folks who do not have a proven track record for accurate prediction and being current insiders and decision makers, then I'm skeptical. Especially when the claims are big. I've said it already, CAC can double their J-20 production rate and PLAAF will still be jumping at every single unit produced as soon as it leaves the factory. There is simply no room to sell them even if PAF can pay double the price PLAAF is paying. PLAAF will happily outbid PAF to get J-20 priority delivery and pay a premium to receive every single unit produced. Of course this isn't how the military and MIC works in China so that's not a possibility. Even the US to this day will not sell a single F-22 used or restarted production line no matter how much Japan begs to pay for the privilege.

I don't recall anyone doubting 054A sales. Maybe there were a few skeptical but that's hardly unbelievable. After all frigates have a far greater depth of modularity without completely killing utility unlike a fighter. J-20 has one AESA radar, if China sells it, they won't want to redevelop a completely different unit just to keep the Chinese one hidden. A frigate and its subsystems are not at the cutting edge of warship technology. The comparison is not appropriate. Also I've personally always believed 054A would be exported. It holds nothing in terms of confidential or sensitive technology. It's also quite an old ship now. Even Chinese coastguards are equipped with the same hull albeit different sensors. PLAN itself has stopped 054A introduction for some time iirc. J-20 is just going into PLAAF now. If 055 gets sold in its entirety with most of the same subsystems as the PLAN version, then that can be used as good supporting evidence for the claim.

J-10D speculation sounds like blk 3 speculation. I really don't know where so many Pakistani military observers/enthusiasts like making confident guesses. Sure everyone is bound to get some well educated guesses right like AESA in blk 3 but come on. There is zero hint there'd be a J-10D at this point, much less its details like CFT, more hardpoints, and a new engine. It's nice to imagine, something I do all the time but let's not convince ourselves these imaginary things are 100% certainties.

Nice right up and I don't want to drag this thread further ..... but I wish I could dig in and get the referred posts (054 scenario) where exactly same type of statements were made at that time which you just mentioned above.

I am sure in future when such acquisitions will be made then again members will say oh it holds nothing confidential or sensitive technology & its quite old.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The claims being made simply do not pass simple logic tests.

If America would not sell F22s to the likes of Israel, UK or Japan, all of whom have exclusively close relations with the US, why would China allow its most advanced tech to be exported to Pakistan, who is a long time American Allie also?

The 054 sale follows the same broad practice of the F7 sale, whereby Pakistan got a customised version of in service Chinese systems that are superior to what China fielded for its own forces.

However, the 054, just like the J7, was not the top Chinese platform of the day.

Indeed, China has never ever exported the very best kind of weapon that its own forces use for big ticket items unless and until a superior replacement was in final testing or actively deployed.

To suggest otherwise is to both go against well established historical trends and China’s own national interest.

No matter how close you are with a country, you cannot expect the other side to sacrifice its own national interest and security to do you a solid.

PL12s were made available for export because the PL15 was on the horizon for the PLAAF. The JF17 programme itself would have been unnecessary had the PLAAF made the J10 available to Pakistan in the first place.

With the J20 being so brand new, there is just no way China would release it for export even to Pakistan.

The only exceptions would be in times of extremes, for example where Pakistan is fighting a war of national survival, and where its loss in such a war would have a profoundly harmful impact on Chinese national interest and security, which would trump the potential risks of leaks of sensitive data on current Chinese weapon systems.

There have also been precedents where China had sent assets from its own frontline forces to aid Pakistan. And China could use announced ‘arms sales’ as both a signalling tool to show support and try to dissuade a 3rd party from launching such a war; and/or provide the pretext for military support or even direct, covert action to try and turn the tide in such a war.

So, if for example, tensions massively escalate despite Pakistani efforts to defuse the situation, and open war looks imminent, Beijing might well announce J10 and J20 sales to the PAF.

Emergency deliveries of J10s could be done by sending in repainted PLAAF frontline jets with minimal or no changes.

The would serve the dual purpose of showing public support, and establishing the presence of the type within PAF inventories.

That means that if it came to it, PLAAF frontline units could deploy to Pakistan and engage directly in combat operations while masquerading as PAF forces, similar to what the Soviets did during Korea.

That allows China to help turn the tide while also avoiding having to declare war itself.

Any J20 sale to Pakistan within the next few decades could only happen under such scenarios. But the J20s would be Pakistani only in name, they will be flown by Chinese pilots; would operate from Chinese bases, and would only operate over Pakistani airspace in a defensive manner to safeguard both pilots and planes from falling into enemy hands in case of accidents or combat losses.
 

timepass

Brigadier
The claims being made simply do not pass simple logic tests.

If America would not sell F22s to the likes of Israel, UK or Japan, all of whom have exclusively close relations with the US, why would China allow its most advanced tech to be exported to Pakistan, who is a long time American Allie also?

The 054 sale follows the same broad practice of the F7 sale, whereby Pakistan got a customised version of in service Chinese systems that are superior to what China fielded for its own forces.

However, the 054, just like the J7, was not the top Chinese platform of the day.

Indeed, China has never ever exported the very best kind of weapon that its own forces use for big ticket items unless and until a superior replacement was in final testing or actively deployed.

To suggest otherwise is to both go against well established historical trends and China’s own national interest.

No matter how close you are with a country, you cannot expect the other side to sacrifice its own national interest and security to do you a solid.

PL12s were made available for export because the PL15 was on the horizon for the PLAAF. The JF17 programme itself would have been unnecessary had the PLAAF made the J10 available to Pakistan in the first place.

With the J20 being so brand new, there is just no way China would release it for export even to Pakistan.

The only exceptions would be in times of extremes, for example where Pakistan is fighting a war of national survival, and where its loss in such a war would have a profoundly harmful impact on Chinese national interest and security, which would trump the potential risks of leaks of sensitive data on current Chinese weapon systems.

There have also been precedents where China had sent assets from its own frontline forces to aid Pakistan. And China could use announced ‘arms sales’ as both a signalling tool to show support and try to dissuade a 3rd party from launching such a war; and/or provide the pretext for military support or even direct, covert action to try and turn the tide in such a war.

So, if for example, tensions massively escalate despite Pakistani efforts to defuse the situation, and open war looks imminent, Beijing might well announce J10 and J20 sales to the PAF.

Emergency deliveries of J10s could be done by sending in repainted PLAAF frontline jets with minimal or no changes.

The would serve the dual purpose of showing public support, and establishing the presence of the type within PAF inventories.

That means that if it came to it, PLAAF frontline units could deploy to Pakistan and engage directly in combat operations while masquerading as PAF forces, similar to what the Soviets did during Korea.

That allows China to help turn the tide while also avoiding having to declare war itself.

Any J20 sale to Pakistan within the next few decades could only happen under such scenarios. But the J20s would be Pakistani only in name, they will be flown by Chinese pilots; would operate from Chinese bases, and would only operate over Pakistani airspace in a defensive manner to safeguard both pilots and planes from falling into enemy hands in case of accidents or combat losses.

Nothing new, repeating of same old mantra ...... Since 2007 I am with SDF & saw such type of posts hundred of times in different scenarios....
 
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