JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[asif iqbal]

Put it this way

Block 3 will be a top tier fighter

and should never be offered for export

max should be block 2 for export

 

[Deino]

Put it this way

Block 3 will be a top tier fighter

and should never be offered for export

max should be block 2 for export

Nope ... Again, it will be a fine fighter, but we do not have to hype it as magical or undefeatable. Otherwise it remains what it is: a single-engined lightweight fighter with a decent but surely not top-notch engine and as such this will limit it dramatically.


By the way ... Come on .... please show some pictures!! Don't be so shy ...

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It's rumored 1st prototype of JF-17 Block Ⅲ has appeared.

 

[ougoah]

Lol I was under the impression blk 3 was ready for service. Only prototyping? Yikes I haven't paid attention. But being an upgrade, it prototype to service is short.

I wonder if there are will be any obvious surface level structural changes. BTW of course Pakistan and China should allow for blk 3's export are you kidding me?? No matter how impressive anyone thinks this fighter will be, it's not going to be cutting edge while the world embraces and buys into 5th gen fighters. There is only so much you can do with a medium thrust single engine, all on a tight development budget and being sold for a fraction of the price for another upgraded 4th gen.

 

[Mohsin77]

The first reason is purely distance. AWACs are high value targets and for this reason are typically kept within safe zone and this could easily mean 300 kms away from the air assets being supported. Any penetrating counter air engagements could at least 200 - 300 kms from the outer rim. This collectively puts a distance of 500 - 600 kms distance between the AWCs and any OCA. The Erieye currently has a detection distance using S band of 350 kms against a fighter size target. Such a set up means the Eireye would not have insufficient coverage to be of any credible use.

The second consideration is the nature of the data link. Any credible data links need to have high throughput with low latency. Data links such as Link 16 or "Link 16" like would not be technically feasible primarily due to high latency against fast moving maneuvering targets. Even in the case of the USAF, the use of third party targeting data using data links are restricted to IFDL and MADL links that are used by the F-22s and F-35s respectively. The USN has plans to roll out TTNT for such purpose but won't be in place until F-18 E/F Block 3s are introduced starting in 2020.

Fair point about the Eireye's range; however, latency shouldn't be a bottleneck for new gen datalinks. Even Elon Musk's new satellite internet is advertising sub 20ms latency. If it's good enough for playing counterstrike, it's more then enough for any Air Force! lolz

Finally, I question whether the S band range resolution is sufficient for targeting beyond its primary function of providing vectoring data.

Fair point again, but maybe getting the missile close enough for its terminal X band seeker to kick in is all that is needed for this use case to work. Point being, in order to make use of the full potential of the PL-15, cueing via datalink will be essential, even for 5th gen platforms that will have to share this data with legacy aircraft. So this is a project that will need to get done either way.

But like I said, this will take a long time... I don't expect the Block III to come out equipped with the PL-15 anyway. It's more of a Project Azm thing, and eventually (hopefully) the Thunders should be able to carry it.

 

[Mohsin77]

I don't really buy into the whole launching missiles just to keep enemies at bay tactic. Certainly has a place but it's a good way for the opposition to exhaust your entire arsenal very quickly. Okay maybe PAF will be very selective with where and when they do this and weigh things up accordingly.

I usually don't buy into the 'firing your gun on Full-Auto ' tactic either... but ask the SOG teams what they did in Vietnam and they'll tell you when it becomes necessary (they used Full Auto 99% of the time.) Point being: it's a tool in the tool kit, that becomes necessary in certain scenarios. And sometimes, that scenario will be the only scenario which you will deal with. Which means you better be able to utilize the full potential of the weapon you have in your hand, because you may end up needing it.

At useful ranges of PL-15, I think the new radar should prove more than capable enough. SD-10 which is export PL-12 is currently used on JF-17 with pulse dopplers. The PL-12's range is about 80km + depending on version. If the current radar can do justice to the SD-10, an AESA that is used to replace the current radar surely must be able to extend the "fireability" range of the PL-15. The Rafale uses a small AESA unit and more than allows for the full range of the Meteor which reaches further than the PL-15. Sure there are many finer details involved and the RBE AESA may be vastly superior in many ways but my point is size, T/R numbers, and power are not everything. If the RBE can make use of 200km missiles while being only marginally larger with perhaps higher T/R count and peak power, then blk 3's AESA compact nature alone, shouldn't stop it from giving justice to PL-15. We'll need to know what the detection ranges are like and what sort of resolution it can provide to really say. Guess we'll never know.

Again, I'm not against the use of the PL-15 on the Thunder. Obviously, I would love for it to have it. All I'm saying is that I doubt that the Block III flight test got delayed because of PL-15 integration. I highly doubt they will delay the flight test to integrate a system that this bird can't even fully utilize. The delay is most likely due to air-frame, or AESA or engine.

Besides, the prototype of the Block III won't even be qualified for guns, let alone the PL-15. Every weapon system needs to be qualified for a new jet from scratch. But first we need to get it in the air.

 

[Mohsin77]

Block 3 will be a top tier fighter

F-22 raptor be like:

 

[asif iqbal]

Nope ... Again, it will be a fine fighter, but we do not have to hype it as magical or undefeatable. Otherwise it remains what it is: a single-engined lightweight fighter with a decent but surely not top-notch engine and as such this will limit it dramatically.


By the way ... Come on .... please show some pictures!! Don't be so shy ...

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I did not see where I said it was going to be magical and undefeatable

I said top tier

 

[Deino]

I did not see where I said it was going to be magical and undefeatable

I said top tier

ok ... then it's another definition of that term: Top-tier is IMO a type like the J-10C, the J-11BG, J-16 and surely the J-20 ... F-35 and F-22 but surely also the €F, the Rafale and the Su-35 ... but at least not by my perception a small single engined lightweight fighter regardless its avionics.

 

[ougoah]

Without defining top tier, it's hard to have a discussion I suppose. But Deino probably assumed you meant either latest generation ie like F-35 or you meant among the most capable. If it's a prototype at the moment, it's probably not going to be the latter when it is ready, and it's certainly not the former no matter what structural changes one makes.

I'm also not sure if PL-15 will appear on JF-17 with the blk 3 but if it does, it will expand its reach 180km ranged AESA against MKI sized targets or not. The newer radar will be better than the one it replaces and even if it doesn't do full justice to the PL-15, it expands the theoretical kill range of the JF-17 by whatever that improved radar range is. With regards firing within NEZ range, it's even better. The issue isn't about integration troubles, rather it is price. PL-15 isn't a replacement for PL-12 for PLAAF by any means so there's actually quite a good chance PAF isn't getting PL-15 for the Thunder with this block. It may not be the radar factor alone, it's just a very costly missile. Considering that IAF has nothing that comes close to PL-12 and AIM-120C, until the Meteor comes in, there's really no great rush for PL-15. When will all 36 Rafales be in IAF and trained up with its pilots? Maybe in about 10 years? However once Rafale and Meteor are in service, there will be a clear capability gap.

 

[MastanKhan]

Nope ... Again, it will be a fine fighter, but we do not have to hype it as magical or undefeatable. Otherwise it remains what it is: a single-engined lightweight fighter with a decent but surely not top-notch engine and as such this will limit it dramatically.


By the way ... Come on .... please show some pictures!! Don't be so shy ...

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Hi,

I would highly recommend you reading military history---.

All militaries have hyped up their weapons---weapons systems---troops---special strike capabilities to create fear or uncertainty at the least in the minds of the enemy---. Sometimes it is a hype---and sometimes it is the truth---the enemy only finds out when it is too late---just like the indian air force---.

When Mr. Iqbal talks about the JF17's capabilities---it is by default primarily based on the aircraft competing in the ARENA---.

You have always shown PREJUDICE against the abilities of the JF17 / Paf---.

So---either you discriminate against this service or are intentionally trying to put it down so that those defending it leak sensitive information to prove their point---for that I don't blame you---because it is a tactic used often.

To run the board and make it look credible---the information has to be sensational.

But otoh when you are referred to a youtube interview of a Retd PAF Air Vice Marshall and he states that the J20 would be available to us if we showed interest in it and if it had a second seat---we would have flown it---. And your response was on the sarcastic side.

I told you about 3-4 years ago---J20 is available to pakistan and a whole plethora of table jockeys attacked me ( which is not surprising )---someone mentioned if nuc subs were available to pakistan and what not---pakistan has no money to buy weapons ( from where the money came for 8 submarines and 4 type 054 frigates and a plethora of orders to Turkey and Holland from navy vessels to coast guard vessels---who knows ).

And I replied if pakistan needs it---it will get it---if china has it---.

The answer was given to all the nay sayers by Pres Xi---when he asked IK a short time ago---what do you want from us---.

I had told you guys---pakistan military never asks for something outrageous---it always stays within it capability blanket---stays with something that it can operate maintain and manage to the best of its abilities and capabilities---.

Pak military firmly believe in a stair step progression in inducting weapons and weapons systems and not buying weapons FOR SHOW---.

Our current type of aircraft has taken charge of the skies---we don't need to up the ante and for what---. The only issue we have is less aircraft in numbers---.