This fighter keeps getting more and more expensive. I think at one point Pakistan would be better off just buying J-10s. It was supposed to be a cheap low end fighter and now they want AESA radar and helmet sights on them. Might as well get a heavier platform with more payload capacity if they want to integrate those systems to make it worthwhile. Also the J-10 has a large nose so it can have a better AESA radar.
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
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To be fair, Pakistan had never stated that it was contend to settle with the baseline JF-17. In fact, the progression of the fighter is inline with the general evolution of the militaries of the Indian Ocean region. Indian, Pakistan's main rival is maintaining a fleet of very capable 4th gen fighters and is planning (at least) to introduce more advanced ones down the road. AESA radars and helmet sights are basically a necessity at this point for any serious air force.
While payload and range will always be an issue for the JF-17, the main prize it gives to Pakistan is the capability to manufacture a fighter without being completely dependent on any single supplier/benefactor. And in comparison with a J-10 with roughly the same tech, the JF-17 is still going to come out cheaper.
Fighter planes are going to be more expensive as they go down the road, if one wants a capable platform.
They settled on this fighter size and weight in a time where it wasn't 100% clear how 2018 and air combat's future will look like and be dominated by. They thought cheaper is better as long as it offered enough range and payload for a nation the size of Pakistan where huge range like a flanker will be cost inefficient when calculating expected life of fighter in an actual war. The thinking may have been that high end avionics and electronics will become easy enough to miniaturise with improving technology and improving Chinese technology base. Now, everything is doable of course, but there is a cost, one that is possibly greater than expected.
Pakistan has over 100 JF-17s in service at this moment. India's equivalent in Tejas at this moment has close to zero combat effectiveness. When properly inducted it may very well be far more sophisticated and capable. MAYBE. But at this moment Pakistan's project has clearly been executed better in comparison. They are also building it themselves and can build as many as they want to buy. China has pretty much zero say in what Pakistan wants to do with JF-17 or how they can be used, so it is effectively domestic.
To get HMS, HOBS, and AESA, along with the usual smaller improvements in newer builds, it will of course come at serious cost increases. Problem with this fighter is the question whether increasing the costs by something significant (let's imagine it was 50%) is worth it for potentially marginal improvement to combat effectiveness. This is where their airforce needs to do some serious analysis and number crunching to figure out what the most sensible strategy is for this platform, given the available options in modifications and their costs. We're not privileged to that data so it's impossible to say. But one thing is for sure, buying J-10c won't happen (or indeed a J-10c customised for PAF). PAF has the support and training all in place for JF-17. Introducing J-10 will add an entire set of secondary costs. It also doesn't give Pakistan the option to self-manufacture and determine what direction they want the platform to grow. PLAAF has every say on this platform and CAC obliges since their J-10 production lines to date are saturated by PLAAF orders and they cannot build them fast enough. Let's remember the USAF has over two thousand capable modern fighters and numerically as well as technologically superior support - IIRC well over a thousand F-16s alone!
Even with these ideal additions, JF-17 will still be much cheaper overall than acquiring and supporting new J-10s even though J-10 platform offers a potentially longer future owing to larger frame and superior aerodynamics. Whatever small performance edges J-10C holds over an updated JF-17, will probably not be worth the time and trouble at all, even if the costs are justified. They may as well express interest in J-31 once SAC gets the product ready. If PLAAF and/or PLAN throw their weight behind J-31, PAF (and any others interested) can potentially benefit from the scaled production if it is ordered by everyone. I doubt that's going to happen though. Still no indication PLAAF is interested at all, and PLAN's decision hasn't been shown. J-31 cannot be brought into a finalised product without serious order numbers and PAF alone will not be able to afford a properly developed J-31.
After the second or was it third prototype surfaced many months ago, the buzz around this model has fizzled out and it will probably stay a dormant program until huge investments are made by a dedicated government. No none F-35 block nation can afford the costs to develop and procure J-31. And I doubt SAC will spend the money to completely develop it without securing orders. So PAF's fighter path for near and medium term is JF-17 only. Every other option is just nowhere near cost effective and none offer unrestricted domestic production as a bonus.
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That is true. I can understand them wanting to leap from the single engine to a dual engine. And the JC-31 does have similar engines to the JF-17 so much of the same infrastructure could be used. But the thing is, AFAIK Pakistan has no capabilities to manufacture AESA radars. They will be importing them. With any kind of radar, the more area it has, the more range it has. The JF-17 has a really small nose so the radar will always be limited in terms of capabilities. Yet it will cost a lot, even more, because it's an import. I am unsure if the HMS will be locally produced or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't either. I think AESA is something that would make sense on a larger aircraft, like the JC-31, or even the J-10, but not on the JF-17. The HMS might make sense if they get a license to manufacture it locally as it vastly increases short-range fighting efficiency.
I remember that at one point China wanted to sell the J-10 to Pakistan and there were rumours about it. But then once the JF-17 program got going that was dismissed out of hand. It is likely it was considered too expensive back then, but, I wonder if with mass production it has had, the price difference is still that significant. I am pretty sure that China would have allowed Pakistan to manufacture some components and assemble others from kits. Not all F-16s were manufactured in the USA either.
I remember that at one point China wanted to sell the J-10 to Pakistan and there were rumours about it. But then once the JF-17 program got going that was dismissed out of hand. It is likely it was considered too expensive back then, but, I wonder if with mass production it has had, the price difference is still that significant. I am pretty sure that China would have allowed Pakistan to manufacture some components and assemble others from kits. Not all F-16s were manufactured in the USA either.
But a smaller radome also means less capable non-AESAs so same problem. Maybe it's still not worth upgrading to AESA since most fights will be relatively short range fights against large RCS planes like Su-30MKI and Mig-29 on the capable spectrum. Rafale when it eventually arrives in IAF will pose a very serious threat to Pakistan.
China should seriously consider arming Pakistan and Iran. Both nations have more economic promise than other US unfriendly nations in the neighbourhood. Help them set up serious domestic production of modern Chinese weapons so they can produce as many as they want domestically and get those MICs started. The more militarily capable anti-US nations on the planet, the better. Just to even the playing field. Practically the entire developed world is willingly or forced to cooperate with US policy on China. Just next door there is Japan. A nation that is already constantly receiving F-35s. The US use Japan as a partner against China, as one would expect them to. China needs to create channels to distribute weapons technology around the world so in case of actual war, it may find some partners. For instance, they can threaten to assist Iran with nuclear technology if the US allows Japanese leaders to scrap article 9 and completely militarise.
The worry with Pakistan is that they will be solely focused on India, a large market for China. Arming Pakistan to the teeth will lead to even greater hostilities between China and India, and China would be to blame for escalating. The issue with Iran is they will focus more on Israel which means the Israelis will be pissed. So China's left with Russia and NK. Russian MIC does alright for itself but economically China's already been trying to support where it can afford to.
I'm surprised that the JF-17 doesn't have a HMS. And even more so that it didn't come with the block II upgrade. In China even some of the J-7's have a HMS. So the technology is available to Pakistan if they wanted. So whats the issue here ?
Correct about the J-31 if only Pakistan will buy them then its not going to happen. The numbers will be too small to be economically viable for production. So the JF-17 block III will be the most advanced fighter in the Pakistani fleet for some time to come.
The JF-17 block III will be based on the J-17B airframe that has a bigger radome and has a better 360° view from the cockpit compared to the standard JF-17 model. Hopefully it will have a more streamlined airframe than the JF-17B !
Correct about the J-31 if only Pakistan will buy them then its not going to happen. The numbers will be too small to be economically viable for production. So the JF-17 block III will be the most advanced fighter in the Pakistani fleet for some time to come.
The JF-17 block III will be based on the J-17B airframe that has a bigger radome and has a better 360° view from the cockpit compared to the standard JF-17 model. Hopefully it will have a more streamlined airframe than the JF-17B !
Aliph Ahmed
New Member
Jf17 block 3 has not rolled out yet so no point in speculating what it will have and not have.
Hendrik_2000
Lieutenant General
But most of the module and radar,avionic still come from China.To say that Pakistan has complete independence is not right
Do we have any information on specs and features of Chinese HMS available, which can be shortlisted for JF 17.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Good news
48 UCAV drones coming to Pakistan
If PAC is involved it will certainly open up their portfolio
From UAV, UCAV, trainers to fighters
Very good development
Maybe Block III will see first WL II come out
Imagine a Block III on the tarmac flanked by two WL II drones nice
48 UCAV drones coming to Pakistan
If PAC is involved it will certainly open up their portfolio
From UAV, UCAV, trainers to fighters
Very good development
Maybe Block III will see first WL II come out
Imagine a Block III on the tarmac flanked by two WL II drones nice