JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[asif iqbal]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I seriously believe China J-10B or even J-10A is better than F-16 blk 52. If not, US will not sell it to PAF. Definitely, Chinese delegation had already shown or even disassemble one for study by PAF. The AIM-120 missiles are also shown to the Chinese. But it might be a earlier version and inferior to SD-10.

huh? never this this one before, and it is very unlikely

J10A maybe not but certainly J10B is capable to go up against Indian Rafale, which by the isnt going into service till atleast 2016 or even longer, by then J10B will be even better

right now J10B is a slight overkill for PAF, plus we have our hands full with new F16 C/D Block 52+ and JF17, there is no way PAF can absorb something as advanced as J10B without serious shortcomings

US would sell advanced fighters to the PAF and have did in the past, after Israel it was Pakistan who was only the 2nd nation to operate F16s outside US in 1983 , deal was signed in 1981, thats 3 decades ago!! did you know we got F16 before Turkey

the current new F16 package includes,

•500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
•12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
•200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
•240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
•500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
•1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
•800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
•700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse

pretty good weapons there, not to mention

•7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
•7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
•36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
•36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
•36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft’s sides to give them extra range
•36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
•36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
•36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
•36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW)

no doubt Pakistan has shown early F16 A/B to China, but these new ones come with very strict terms and conditions from US, I am sure Pakistan will at some point work round them, but i dont think it has happened as of yet

Pakistan has right now

(32) F16 A/B + (14) F16 A/B + (18) F16 C/D Block 52+ =total 64 aircraft includes 46 F16 A/B which will go through MLU and 18 new F16s

we are set to get 14 more F16 A/B + 18 more F16 C/D Block 52+=total F16 of 96 aircraft

of these 36 are new F16 C/D Block 52+ and 60 F16 A/B upgraded to MLU standard, which is escence puts it into C/D Block 52 standard

so,

36 x F16 C/D Block 52+
60 x F16 A/B MLU

 

[Lion]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

huh? never this this one before, and it is very unlikely

J10A maybe not but certainly J10B is capable to go up against Indian Rafale, which by the isnt going into service till atleast 2016 or even longer, by then J10B will be even better

right now J10B is a slight overkill for PAF, plus we have our hands full with new F16 C/D Block 52+ and JF17, there is no way PAF can absorb something as advanced as J10B without serious shortcomings

US would sell advanced fighters to the PAF and have did in the past, after Israel it was Pakistan who was only the 2nd nation to operate F16s outside US in 1983 , deal was signed in 1981, thats 3 decades ago!! did you know we got F16 before Turkey

the current new F16 package includes,

•500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
•12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
•200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
•240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
•500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
•1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
•800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
•700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse

pretty good weapons there, not to mention

•7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
•7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
•36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
•36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
•36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft’s sides to give them extra range
•36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
•36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
•36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
•36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW)

no doubt Pakistan has shown early F16 A/B to China, but these new ones come with very strict terms and conditions from US, I am sure Pakistan will at some point work round them, but i dont think it has happened as of yet

Pakistan has right now

(32) F16 A/B + (14) F16 A/B + (18) F16 C/D Block 52+ =total 64 aircraft includes 46 F16 A/B which will go through MLU and 18 new F16s

we are set to get 14 more F16 A/B + 18 more F16 C/D Block 52+=total F16 of 96 aircraft

of these 36 are new F16 C/D Block 52+ and 60 F16 A/B upgraded to MLU standard, which is escence puts it into C/D Block 52 standard

so,

36 x F16 C/D Block 52+
60 x F16 A/B MLU

During the 80's CHina was still friendly towards US, US and CHina even has military technology cooperation. US will not worry about selling F-16 towards Pakistan and especially, CHina technology that time was very weak. Letting you take a look doesn't mean you can immediately RE it. Your technology base must be strong enough to absorb other technology. US even afford to allow CMF -56 core of advance engine sold to CHina during the honeymoon period. They are not afraid to do so , cos they believe China is not able to RE during that period.

What I trying to mean now is why Blk 52 and AIM-120 missiles are allow to be sold to Pakistan in the 2010? First, it needs Pakistan support for Afgan campaign, second is Blk 52 level of sophistication is already achieve by China. J-10 is some level of China F-16, better and more advance airframe, multi- role is demonstrated by recent Tibet air exercise where LT-guided bombs are dropped. Although, we have not seen real ground photo of J-10 hanging with pod and guided ammunition. This doesn't mean it can't as many times, interview of PLAAF personnel has comfirmed J-10 to be a multi-roles if neccessary.

Even the SD-10 has reached the sophistication of AIM-120 C version. Probably not the D version. All this sales are allowed becos it is something CHina has already achieved, nothing to lose to allow CHina take a look at it. Even the P-3C MPA sold to PAF is not something super great as demonstrated by China Y-8Q which is equavaleint to it.

US is not stupid. They sold what is China already capable of producing it with equavaleint to PAF. Nothing to lose.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

again that is not true, the terms of the agreement between USA and Pakistan state that new F16s will be established at a airbase which meets the criteria set aside by Americans, in addition they will only be allowed to fly inside Pakistan air space and no 3rd party is allowed to visit Shabaz airbase

secondly Shabaz airbase is located in Jacobabad, which is in Sindh province, very far away from Afghanistan, there is no way these F16s can be used for counter-insurgency or Afghan border patrol, that is job for JF17 at Peshawar

i think u are mis-understanding, Americans have very tight control of these F16s and who gets to see them, they certainly DO care if Chinese get to see them, these F16s are operated by dozens of countrys its a frontline fighter, u think US would say yeah ok China can make J20 so lets just give them a new F16 to look as well?? no, it doesnt work like that

 

[Lion]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

again that is not true, the terms of the agreement between USA and Pakistan state that new F16s will be established at a airbase which meets the criteria set aside by Americans, in addition they will only be allowed to fly inside Pakistan air space and no 3rd party is allowed to visit Shabaz airbase

secondly Shabaz airbase is located in Jacobabad, which is in Sindh province, very far away from Afghanistan, there is no way these F16s can be used for counter-insurgency or Afghan border patrol, that is job for JF17 at Peshawar

i think u are mis-understanding, Americans have very tight control of these F16s and who gets to see them, they certainly DO care if Chinese get to see them, these F16s are operated by dozens of countrys its a frontline fighter, u think US would say yeah ok China can make J20 so lets just give them a new F16 to look as well?? no, it doesnt work like that

Its about understanding what's yr enemies capabilites. Strict control? I doubt that , unless the fighter jet or airbase is control by US forces which is not.

US needs Pakistan cooperation, that's for sure. It need to give some incentives to Pakistan to achieve that,right? Blk 52 deal is one US need to do it to get that cooperation. Plus the American has weight their pros and cons before conducting that deal. It has nothing to lose and pros outweigh it.

If that is the case, why AIM-120D is not sold to PAF?? The inventor of SD-10 claim PLAAF version is as good as the AIM-120C version, exactly the version C sold to PAF... American are not stupid.

Think about it, do you think the American have not think of the scenario, USA and Pakistan has reached a level of hostility that reached the brink of war? When you are near at war with others, will Pakistan still follow the rules of not allowing third party not to inspect Blk 52?

US of cos, has weight in this kind of scenario and is prepare to lose this technology to China but they must have figure out, its nothing new to Chinese cos they have achieved this certain level of technology. As you say it precisely, CHina can produce J-20? What is AIM-120 and Blk 52 to China??? Nothing exciting..

 

[victtodd]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

I disagree, first, despite the distrust between USA and Pakistan, the American still holds considerable swings over Pakistan military through personnel training and military aid, the conditions would be effectively monitored and fulfilled, it would always a wise idea not ever to underestimate your opponents. Second, possessing roughly same level of technology doesn't mean you can figure out the details of your opponents' toys easily. If Pla is offered a chance to study F-16c/d, I bet Pla would be more than happy to suck in all the information available, understanding the nuts and bolts as well as design philosophy.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Lion i think you are failing to see the bigger picture and solutions to the issues we are discussing, so i will leave it there

 

[plawolf]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Its about understanding what's yr enemies capabilites. Strict control? I doubt that , unless the fighter jet or airbase is control by US forces which is not.

They may not be policed by US troops, but I believe part of the agreement is that US personnel can make unannounced visits to the air base at any time. In addition, the US probably have surveillance on the air base.

Even if Pakistan was willing to risk being caught red handed and allowed a few Chinese personnel onto the air base discretely, those engineers would be able to do precious little just looking at the equipment. There is not even a need for Chinese personnel to physically be at the base if they just wanted a look-see under the hood. The Pakistanis could easily take extremely detailed photo and videos themselves and pass that on.

The issue is that in order to get much useful information and technology, the equipment would need to not just be disassemble, but more importantly, tested. All the critical components are also 'black boxed', and if they are opened, the US would know about it next time they do a check of the planes (assuming the black boxes themselves do no contain sensors and transmitters designed to alert the US instantly if they have been tampered with).

The US are not fools, and have spent a great deal of time, effort and money to make sure their technology is as secure as possible.

 

[asif iqbal]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

there is some info that PAF is working on getting JF17 to launch stand off land attack cruise missiles

the missile is called CM-400AKG a varient of C802, also known as CM-802AKG

the missile has its own advanced seeker which can be pre-programmed and ZDK-03 also datalink with it, it is designed to penetrate deep underground bunkers and fortifications

C802 has already succesfully been fired and hit a target fired from JF17, lets wait and see how this missile comes along, it is lighter than C802 but has a longer range meaning it can target locations deep into enemy territory

if this news is true it will open a new era for JF17

JF17 Thunder can fire vast array of advanced weapons for true multi-purpose capability

air-to-air missiles
air-land attack missiles
smart bombs like JDAM
anti-ship missiles

 

[A.Man]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

A Real Footage Of A Bombing Run

[video]http://static.youku.com/v1.0.0225/v/swf/loader.swf?VideoIDS=XMzc2MTM2ODQ0&embedid=NzEuMi4yMDIuMTM2Ajk0MDM0MjExAgI%3D&wd=[/video]

 

[SinoSoldier]

Re: JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

there is some info that PAF is working on getting JF17 to launch stand off land attack cruise missiles

the missile is called CM-400AKG a varient of C802, also known as CM-802AKG

the missile has its own advanced seeker which can be pre-programmed and ZDK-03 also datalink with it, it is designed to penetrate deep underground bunkers and fortifications

C802 has already succesfully been fired and hit a target fired from JF17, lets wait and see how this missile comes along, it is lighter than C802 but has a longer range meaning it can target locations deep into enemy territory

if this news is true it will open a new era for JF17

JF17 Thunder can fire vast array of advanced weapons for true multi-purpose capability

air-to-air missiles
air-land attack missiles
smart bombs like JDAM
anti-ship missiles

Huh, could this be the rumored YJ-85 that we've been hearing about?