Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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Dolcevita

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Jeff Head said:
The fact that Japan is not aggressively maintiaining its territorial water limit tells you they do not want a war over this issue as it stands. The feel that they can come in and land on the island, do surveys, show a presece as often as necessary to punctuate their claim...but thay have also shown that when it comes to other nationals landing on the islands and planting flags...they physically and forcefully remove them.
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Any attempt by Present Day Japan to "come in and land on the island, do surveys, show a presence as often as necessary to punctuate their claim" will be taken as a provocation and escalation of this dispute, This is the reason why Japan has not done so. Some Right-wing Extremist elements had tried to land and plant flags but was forcefully removed from the island. Any attempt to encourage Japan to do so by Americans are irresponsible and an attempt to test China's resolve without risk for those suggesting such a action.
 
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LesAdieux

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Dolcevita said:
Any attempt by Present Day Japan to "come in and land on the island, do surveys, show a presence as often as necessary to punctuate their claim" will be taken as a provocation and escalation of this dispute, This is the reason why Japan has not done so. Some Right-wing Extremist elements had tried to land and plant flags but was forcefully removed from the island. Any attempt to encourage Japan to do so by Americans are irresponsible and an attempt to test China's resolve without risk for those suggesting such a action.
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city of ishihara in okinawa has decided to file an application to the UN to apply for "the world natural inheritance" for the diaoyu isls. according to the mayor of ishihara (no relation with the tokyo governor), the application will confirm japanese sovereignty over the diaoyu through the UN. the application procedure will include landing and survey of the island.

the hardcore elements of the right-wing are pushing hard, and the hardliner Abe is unlikely to show his softness on the issue.

history is repeating itself. many incidents leading to the WW II were planed and carried out by low level officers in the japanese army, they then forced tokyo to accept facts on the ground.

China has dismissed the application as "another farce", but the farce drama just carries on.
 
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airsuperiority

Captain
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

LesAdieux said:
city of ishihara in okinawa has decided to file an application to the UN to apply for "the world natural inheritance" for the diaoyu isls. according to the mayor of ishihara (no relation with the tokyo governor), the application will confirm japanese sovereignty over the diaoyu through the UN. the application procedure will include landing and survey of the island.

the hardcore elements of the right-wing are pushing hard, and the hardliner Abe is unlikely to show his softness on the issue.

history is repeating itself. many incidents leading to the WW II were planed and carried out by low level officers in the japanese army, they then forced tokyo to accept facts on the ground.

China has dismissed the application as "another farce", but the farce drama just carries on.
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I won't even give a 2 cent sh!t to them if I were China. Trolls will always be trolls, so not worth a even a single cell worth of attention.
I'd be surprised if the UN even flicker one glance at these nazis
 
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airsuperiority

Captain
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Former Japanese Ambassador to China compared this issue to a couple's quarrel, and claims that both sides should treat one another respectfully. Whoever thinks they have the upper hand should apologize first, and even said if Japan thinks they are, then they should be the first to apologize.

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I thought about what he's said and it brings a question to me. He mentioned the 50/50 joint development, and I was thinking, can both sides come to a common agreement where both sides gain a certain grounds?



speaking of this, i will publish my idea on my blog very soon about what i see of the diaoyu/senkaku crisis. i sort of came up with an answer.
 
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Mysterre

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

airsuperiority said:
Former Japanese Ambassador to China compared this issue to a couple's quarrel, and claims that both sides should treat one another respectfully. Whoever thinks they have the upper hand should apologize first, and even said if Japan thinks they are, then they should be the first to apologize.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I thought about what he's said and it brings a question to me. He mentioned the 50/50 joint development, and I was thinking, can both sides come to a common agreement where both sides gain a certain grounds?



speaking of this, i will publish my idea on my blog very soon about what i see of the diaoyu/senkaku crisis. i sort of came up with an answer.
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There is definitely a case to be made for 50/50 joint development of the contested area north of DYT, where Japan claims the median line and China claims the continental shelf. Both "median line" and "continental shelf" are legitimate claims as UN conventions allow either without specifying which takes greater priority; countries are left to themselves to resolve disputes. The oil inside this disputed area should IMO be jointly developed by Japan and China.

DYT is another matter altogether. IMO this is an issue of historical injustice and one of the last pieces of Japanese colonial aggression that needs to be resolved with China before the 2 countries can finally put the past behind them (some others being the permanent removal of the 14 convicted class A war criminals inside the Yasukuni Shrine and official Japanese acknowledgement of the true extent of the Nanjing Massacre and of the activities of Unit 731). There should be no compromise here or 50/50 joint development of the surrounding sea.
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Reguarly patrolling inside the 12nm "territorial waters" of DYT is a very significant move in and of itself, but certainly not one which would lead to war.
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It's weak, very weak. No one will give a damn because it won't mean anything. People occupying territory is what matters.

I'm not advocating a position, I'm explaining what would work for China and Japan. Jeff Head correctly stated there is nothing on the island to intrinsically justify a human presence....except for the fact that it is the ultimate claim on territory. One of the justifications for the American Homestead Act in the 1860s was to settle the Frontier and prevent foreign encroachment. Look at how Israel is promoting settlement in the West Bank in order to stake their claim to the land.

Practically speaking, either China or Japan could pay a hundred of its citizens to settle there. I'm sure some patriotic fishermen would jump at the opportunity, provided they are well-subsidized. They could build a small harbor and base their ships there.

It's no different from the dozens of forts dotting the South China Sea islands. Those islands have no intrinsic economic value, yet China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, and Malaysia spend a lot of money to supply and expand their positions. The Diaoyu Islands are close enough to China were resupply would not be a problem. Resupply might be an issue for Japan but they are rich enough to pay for it. The whole settlement would only cost a couple of million dollars a year, chump change for Beijing and Tokyo.
 
cn_habs

cn_habs

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

airsuperiority said:
Former Japanese Ambassador to China compared this issue to a couple's quarrel, and claims that both sides should treat one another respectfully. Whoever thinks they have the upper hand should apologize first, and even said if Japan thinks they are, then they should be the first to apologize.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I thought about what he's said and it brings a question to me. He mentioned the 50/50 joint development, and I was thinking, can both sides come to a common agreement where both sides gain a certain grounds?



speaking of this, i will publish my idea on my blog very soon about what i see of the diaoyu/senkaku crisis. i sort of came up with an answer.
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I'd personally find that very insulting because it'd be a sore reminder of the inhuman and brutal Japanese invasions to all Chinese. We got all the economic upper hand here as the Japanese economy purely survives on quantitative easings.

Then even the weak Filipinos and the Vietnamese would interpret that historic concession from the PRC as a sign of weakness once again. Sooner or later, you'd be invaded again because the strong have always preyed on the weak. Period .
 
Mysterre

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Geographer said:
It's weak, very weak. No one will give a damn because it won't mean anything. People occupying territory is what matters.

I'm not advocating a position, I'm explaining what would work for China and Japan. Jeff Head correctly stated there is nothing on the island to intrinsically justify a human presence....except for the fact that it is the ultimate claim on territory. One of the justifications for the American Homestead Act in the 1860s was to settle the Frontier and prevent foreign encroachment. Look at how Israel is promoting settlement in the West Bank in order to stake their claim to the land.

Practically speaking, either China or Japan could pay a hundred of its citizens to settle there. I'm sure some patriotic fishermen would jump at the opportunity, provided they are well-subsidized. They could build a small harbor and base their ships there.

It's no different from the dozens of forts dotting the South China Sea islands. Those islands have no intrinsic economic value, yet China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Taiwan, and Malaysia spend a lot of money to supply and expand their positions. The Diaoyu Islands are close enough to China were resupply would not be a problem. Resupply might be an issue for Japan but they are rich enough to pay for it. The whole settlement would only cost a couple of million dollars a year, chump change for Beijing and Tokyo.
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If that's how you feel about it, then tell me what you think China would do if India moved into Aksai Chin and built a bunch of houses and "settled" people there, and why you think a Chinese response to that would somehow be different from a Japanese response to China sending people over to "settle" DYT.

There is a perception of de facto administration which you seem to not be getting here. In contrast to many of the little islets in the Spratlys, both Aksai Chin and DYT are CLEARLY administered by specific countries, and any arbitray move to change the status quo would be viewed extremely negatively in today's world. And TBH neither Japan nor India are in the league of any of the SEA nations and are not to be easily trifled with by arbitrarily land-grabbing like some kind of bully. Perhaps you personally do not care about international perception, but I'm pretty sure Chinese leaders give at least some thought to this, as all national leaders should. Even with Western media biased against China, a unilateral move by India to send its people into Aksai Chin would be universally condemned, as it should be. And that would be just the media response. The military and political response would be immediate and severe. It wouldn't be any different if China did the same to Japan.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Dolcevita said:
Any attempt by Present Day Japan to "come in and land on the island, do surveys, show a presence as often as necessary to punctuate their claim" will be taken as a provocation and escalation of this dispute, This is the reason why Japan has not done so. Some Right-wing Extremist elements had tried to land and plant flags but was forcefully removed from the island.
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And who landed on the islands and "forcefully" removed them? That's right, the Japanese did, further punctuating their position as the recognized administrators of the islands.

Dolcevita said:
Any attempt to encourage Japan to do so by Americans are irresponsible and an attempt to test China's resolve without risk for those suggesting such a action.
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I have not seen any Americans suggesting they do this. I only made the observation that they had done it...and when they removed their own people and later others from the islands, they officially punctuated themselves as the ones with the authority to do so.

In so doing over they years, they have established themselves as the de facto administration of the islands.

China is attempting to stand up to that now...but Japan will not tolerate China landing on the islands themselves to upset that de facto position.

So the de facto position remains and ships sailing around within 12 km of the islands do not change that.

Japan is not going to "fight" that...they don't have to. And I do not believe China is ready to land a contingent of troops on any of those islands and build forts like they (and others) have done in the Spratleys precisely because they are not desirous to have a shooting war with Japan over it.

Facing off in a maritime confrontation against the Philipines or Vietnam is not the same as contemplating such a confrontation with Japan and all the strings Japan has attached to it.
 
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