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Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Obi Wan Russell said:

You've raised a good point. When HMS Invincible was ordered she was still being referred to as a 'Through Deck Cruiser/ Command Cruiser' rather than a carrier and she was named after a WW1 Battlecruiser instead of recieving a carrier name. The second unit was nearly named HMS Lion but by then there was growing acceptance that the class were carriers, and the second and third units recieved carrier names (Illustrious and Indomitable, later changed to Ark Royal). The new CVFs Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales do not have traditional carrier names either, but the reasoning is again more political than naval. If the Japanese ships had recieved traditional carrier names (eg Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku... you get the gist) then that would have been a very unambiguous political statement about the true nature of the ships, but by taking the path they have they can emphasise the 'non carrier nature' or at least 'not a true carrier' aspect whilst giving a knowing look to those of us watching from the sidelines.

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As you are fond of saying...

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Except in this case, I would addd...if it floats like a duck.

The JMSDF is putting quality vessels to sea in quantity and they have a very strong experience base. All in all, they are the second strongest destroyer Navy in the world...one that is now adding strong amphibious capabilities and sea control capabilities. Not a force to be trifled with in the least, that's for sure.

Great discussion guys..

I feel agree with most of what you have stated`. This class ship used in operations with as Jeff says ;

Kongo, an Atago, and two each of Takanami and Murasami DDGs. Add a couple of Osumis

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The JMSDF has now assembled most potent Naval force in the Pacific besides the USN. Period.

The true aircraft capacity of the Hyuga will be probaly similar to the old USN Iwo Jima class LPH which was 30+ helos

The manning of the ship will be much less because of automation. Plus the JMSDF berthing on their ships is much more..shall I say luxurious than berthing on a USN vessel..I.E. 6 man state room for enlisted men. No such thing in the USN...

Let's compare the 16DDH stats to the LPH-2 class

Iwo Jima class
Power Plant: Two boilers, one geared steam turbines, one shaft, 22,000 total shaft horsepower
Max. Speed : 23 knots
Light Displacement: 13,465 tons
Full Displacement: 19,395 tons
Dimensions : 183 m x 25 m
Flight Deck Width : 31 m
Crew : 700 + 1800 marines
Aircraft : Mix of 25-30 helos(AV-8 at times)

16DDH
Displacement: 13,500 tons light, 20,000+ tons full load
Demensions 195m x 32m
Draft: 7.0m
Powerplant: 4 Gas turbine COGAG, 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower: 100,000 hp
Maximum Speed: 30 kt
Crew: 347 + airwing and troops
Aircraft : 4..Yeah Right! Closer to 24+

I'm impressed with this ship. The speed is remarkable.

Question..any of you CV experts have any idea how large the hangar deck is? I.E. the demensions??? Thanks!

Moderator's note..Gents..lets keep our discussion of the JMSDF 16DDH in this thread alone. No need to have the same discussion in multipile threads.

Thanks.

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

bd popeye said:

Gents..lets keep our discussion of the JMSDF 16DDH in this thread alone. No need to have the same discussion in multipile threads.

Thanks.

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Roger that. Wilco.

As to the dimensions of the hangar deck...I have not heard yet. But since the vessel is about 12m longer and a good 7m wider than the Iwo Jima, I have to believe that it is a larger hanger space.

As to the speed...100,000 hp will do a lot for you.

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

As well as being a potent force on their own, I think this ship would be a handy addition to a US CVSG in times of conflict. The Hyuga could carry a significant force of ASW helicopters and this would free up deck space on the CVN's for more strike aircraft in place of the Seahawk ASW helicopters. Although Japan's constitution might prevent this unless there was a direct threat to Japan.

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Neutral Zone said:

As well as being a potent force on their own, I think this ship would be a handy addition to a US CVSG in times of conflict. The Hyuga could carry a significant force of ASW helicopters and this would free up deck space on the CVN's for more strike aircraft in place of the Seahawk ASW helicopters. Although Japan's constitution might prevent this unless there was a direct threat to Japan.

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Same thing for a British task force of the future...the new QE and Horizon vessels coupled with this type of JMSDF force. But I admit the integration with the US CSG is more likely since both nations operate basically the same hardware.

I can also see a similar integration at some point with Australia and its new vessels.

If there were ever a mutual threat...as hard as it may seem and unlikely, since they both have adopted AEGIS and similar hardware and are license producing it...there could even come a time when a JMSDF and SKOR force worked together. Amazing times and some amazing naval developments going on in WestPac, with the Hyuga being the latest and a very major development...and a very nice vessel I must add.

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

bd popeye said:

Great discussion guys..

I feel agree with most of what you have stated`. This class ship used in operations with as Jeff says ;



The JMSDF has now assembled most potent Naval force in the Pacific besides the USN. Period.

The true aircraft capacity of the Hyuga will be probaly similar to the old USN Iwo Jima class LPH which was 30+ helos

The manning of the ship will be much less because of automation. Plus the JMSDF berthing on their ships is much more..shall I say luxurious than berthing on a USN vessel..I.E. 6 man state room for enlisted men. No such thing in the USN...

Let's compare the 16DDH stats to the LPH-2 class

Iwo Jima class
Power Plant: Two boilers, one geared steam turbines, one shaft, 22,000 total shaft horsepower
Max. Speed : 23 knots
Light Displacement: 13,465 tons
Full Displacement: 19,395 tons
Dimensions : 183 m x 25 m
Flight Deck Width : 31 m
Crew : 700 + 1800 marines
Aircraft : Mix of 25-30 helos(AV-8 at times)

16DDH
Displacement: 13,500 tons light, 20,000+ tons full load
Demensions 195m x 32m
Draft: 7.0m
Powerplant: 4 Gas turbine COGAG, 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower: 100,000 hp
Maximum Speed: 30 kt
Crew: 347 + airwing and troops
Aircraft : 4..Yeah Right! Closer to 24+

I'm impressed with this ship. The speed is remarkable.

Question..any of you CV experts have any idea how large the hangar deck is? I.E. the demensions??? Thanks!

Moderator's note..Gents..lets keep our discussion of the JMSDF 16DDH in this thread alone. No need to have the same discussion in multipile threads.

Thanks.

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Being able to achieve 30-knots, the 16DDH has true Fleet Carrier speed (granted, in a Jeep Carrier size), unlike the published (and in some cases, actual) 27-28 knots of many Fleet or Light Fleet carriers either out there or being built (or rebuilt). Sometimes you wonder what has happened with many non-U.S. navies' so-called "Fleet" or "Light Fleet" carriers (even RN and French) with less-than-true Fleet speeds; it's somewhat ironic then that the Japanese "un-Carrier" has true Fleet speed.

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Jeff Head said:

No doubt she will use her helos for that purpose. She is also a very powerful Command and control centerpiece.

Imagine an extremely powerful SAG/Sea control force with these vessels. Seven vessels consisting of a Hyuga (one of these), a Kongo, an Atago, and two each of Takanami and Murasami DDGs. Add a couple of Osumis and you have a fairly powerful Amphibious assault group too.

IMHO, the JMSDF is really stepping things up in the western Pacific. Soon they would be able to field two of these groups, either way (SAG/Sea Control or Amphibious Assault, and the launch of these new Hyuga carriers is making a large statement to that effect.

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Nice photos Jeff.

Looking at the task forces that you suggest may be built around these ships shows clearly how quickly the JMSDF is regaining Japan's traditional status as a major naval power. As Popeye says it is already second only to the USN in the Pacific.

Tas

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Sometimes you wonder what has happened with many non-U.S. navies' so-called "Fleet" or "Light Fleet" carriers (even RN and French) with less-than-true Fleet speeds; it's somewhat ironic then that the Japanese "un-Carrier" has true Fleet speed.

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True enough. Why is this ship so fast??? Simple..In my opinion it is to be able to keep up with the USN CSG. Perhaps operating strickly in an ASW capacity. Load the ship with SH-60's and Merlins and with it's escorts you have a very potent ASW sceeen for a USN CSG. This would free up the USN CSG to concentrate on it's attack mission...

Re: JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Norfolk said:

Being able to achieve 30-knots, the 16DDH has true Fleet Carrier speed

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In addition to running with all of their modern destroyers (which all run at 30+ knots) including their six AEGIS vessels, it is clear to me that these vessels were also designed to run with the big dogs, the US CSGs.

In a crisis, those extra knots will make a difference.

Tasman said:

Nice photos Jeff.

Looking at the task forces that you suggest may be built around these ships shows clearly how quickly the JMSDF is regaining Japan's traditional status as a major naval power. As Popeye says it is already second only to the USN in the Pacific.

Tas

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Thanks TAS, it is true, and has been for some time IMHO, even without the Hyuga Class and Osumis. Outisde of the five DDH destroyers, they have a fleet of almost fifty modern destroyers and destroyer escorts, from those smaller destroyer escorts, to speacilty ASW destroyers, to capable multi-purpose destroyers, to very powerful and capable 9,000-10,000 AEGIS vessels.

Here's the full list (including the DDH):

DDH
Hyuga - 1
Shirane - 2
Haruna - 2

DDG - Air coverage
Atago -2
Kong - 4
Hatakazi - 2
Tachikazi - 2

DDG - MP and ASW
Takanami - 4
Murasami - 9
Asagiri - 6
Hatsuyuki - 11

DE - ASW and ASuW
Abukuma - 6
Yubari - 2
Ishikani - 1

Now, with the addition fo the fine sea control carriers, they are developing credible power projection capabilities around that force.

bd popeye said:

True enough. Why is this ship so fast??? Simple..In my opinion it is to be able to keep up with the USN CSG. Perhaps operating strickly in an ASW capacity. Load the ship with SH-60's and Merlins and with it's escorts you have a very potent ASW sceeen for a USN CSG. This would free up the USN CSG to concentrate on it's attack mission...

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Imagine if they developed or purchased a ASW variant of the Osprey to compliment their other helos on that vessel. I bet that larger elevator could accomodate an Osprey that was all folded up and squared away for taking below decks. That would also give them long legged ASW capabilities.

A very potent vessel indeed...and that does not even begin to address what migh be should the Japanese acquire the VSTOL JSF. I am watching for that. If there is a deal discussed regarding that, then you know that they had it in mind from the get go...and I could not blame them in the least and, personally, would in fact welcome it.