Japan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

thunderchief said:

Type 88 was operational in 80's , so this is not good excuse . Also , cruise missiles could be launched from ships and aircraft , and there is cruise missile variant of Harpoon (SLAM) .

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I guess you have no idea what I am talking about.
Type88 are land based missile which will not reach another shore beyond our own. Both ship and plane will be sighted way before it reaches the range of the missile. Sub are the only vessel that can come in range undetected and shoot a missile and return.
Japan can come clean by stating we do not equip SLAM variant of Harpoon on subs and the US can verify this by simply showing the sales sheet towards Japan. Japan can't do that with a domestically developed missile.

thunderchief said:

Count in Hatsuyuki-class , Abukuma-class , Hatakaze-class ,Asagiri-class and subs , and you will get totally different picture . One where Japan tries to supplement Harpoons with domestic products to achieve necessary quantity and to develop own industry - not to replace them with something superior .

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All the ship class you had mentioned above are not equipped with VLS and are slated to be decommissioned within the next ten years. Especially the Hatsuyuki class that are mostly retired or re-designated as a training vessel. MoD had already placed a requisition for budget to replace the Hatakaze-class and Asagiri class is next in line when JMSDF comes out with the advanced version of the Akizuki class.
As for Abukuma class don't know the fate of this class whether JMSDF will just discontinue the corvette type completely or develop a LCS of our own.

thunderchief said:

It is safe to say that modern Harpoons are best subsonic ASMs in the world today (Russian supersonics are whole another ball game so I won't discuss them ) . Long range , re-target capability , terminal manoeuvres , extremely low approach attitude , Block II added GSM etc ...

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Yeah, yeah whatever.

thunderchief said:

Count in Hatsuyuki-class , Abukuma-class , Hatakaze-class ,Asagiri-class and subs , and you will get totally different picture . One where Japan tries to supplement Harpoons with domestic products to achieve necessary quantity and to develop own industry - not to replace them with something superior .

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Those are all older classes Thunder. They are being, or are slated to be replaced. All the new classes will carry the Japanese SSM. Everyone watching the JMSDF knows this.

The SSM is very similar in characteristics to the Harpoon, and probably just as capable...but it is indigenous Japanese. That is the point.

SamuraiBlue, thunderchief: You stood up for your missiles but I think also the French would for Exocet, Russians for П-1000 maybe etc. Could you tell me about some tests (I mean those which are not classified like of the new Teseo
?

Jura said:

SamuraiBlue, thunderchief: You stood up for your missiles but I think also the French would for Exocet, Russians for П-1000 maybe etc. Could you tell me about some tests (I mean those which are not classified like of the new Teseo

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?

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I'll look for them but don't hold your breath it's been more then 20 years since they placed the type 88 SSM-1A into service.

＝＝ Edit ==

Here is an interesting vid from the past showing the final testing stage of the type 88 SSM-1 which was done in the US.

[video=youtube;fCBvFusTLNE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCBvFusTLNE[/video]

From another blogger's foot note I found concerning the testing of the ASM-1 which became the basis of the SSM-1. During the final live fire testing(1979) JASDF scheduling for 4 live fire testing but the first one sunk the ship(A retired Tacoma class frigate) in which the US Military was taken by surprise and made an unusual request to salvage the wreckage and do further study so they can make further evaluation on the missile.

SamuraiBlue said:

I guess you have no idea what I am talking about.
Type88 are land based missile which will not reach another shore beyond our own. Both ship and plane will be sighted way before it reaches the range of the missile. Sub are the only vessel that can come in range undetected and shoot a missile and return.
Japan can come clean by stating we do not equip SLAM variant of Harpoon on subs and the US can verify this by simply showing the sales sheet towards Japan. Japan can't do that with a domestically developed missile.

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Cruise missiles were fired from ships and aircraft (in fact more then from subs) so your argument is invalid . Also , if Japan states it will not equip its subs with Harpoon SLAM , same statement could be repeated for SSM-1 (we will not equip our subs with land-attack version of SSM-1 , only with anti-ship version ) .

SamuraiBlue said:

All the ship class you had mentioned above are not equipped with VLS and are slated to be decommissioned within the next ten years. Especially the Hatsuyuki class that are mostly retired or re-designated as a training vessel. MoD had already placed a requisition for budget to replace the Hatakaze-class and Asagiri class is next in line when JMSDF comes out with the advanced version of the Akizuki class.
As for Abukuma class don't know the fate of this class whether JMSDF will just discontinue the corvette type completely or develop a LCS of our own.

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Current versions of either Harpoon or Type 90 could not be fired from VLS . If Japan really wants VLS capable ASM they would go for Harpoon block II or III .

SamuraiBlue said:

From another blogger's foot note I found concerning the testing of the ASM-1 which became the basis of the SSM-1. During the final live fire testing(1979) JASDF scheduling for 4 live fire testing but the first one sunk the ship(A retired Tacoma class frigate) in which the US Military was taken by surprise and made an unusual request to salvage the wreckage and do further study so they can make further evaluation on the missile.

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Well I sure do hope they have improved that missile , because with this kind of straight and level subsonic flight it looks more like Soviet P-15 Termit ( 0:43 on video below) then modern ASM .

[video=youtube;2vEgTCBRpdo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vEgTCBRpdo[/video]

thunderchief said:

Current versions of either Harpoon or Type 90 could not be fired from VLS . If Japan really wants VLS capable ASM they would go for Harpoon block II or III .

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There will be no VLS Harpoon. The project has been scrapped. The Anti-surface Tactical Tomahawk which is already US VLS system compatible, has a much longer range, and carries a much larger warhead, will be used instead as a bridge to the LRASM. In fact it may supplant the LRASM, depending on costs, performance, etc.

thunderchief: you seem to be so confident in the Harpoon ... after a quick search using google I found, e.g.,

"Aside from being slow, not stealthy, and limited in capability, the missiles are reaching the end of their shelf lives." at

"The Joshan and her crew likely received the message, but with the knowledge that two F-4 Phantoms were inbound from the mainland to assist, turned towards the US ships and fired the first of three US-made Harpoon Anti-Ship missiles at the American ships from a distance of 13 miles. The US ships deployed anti-missile chaff and succeeded in diverting the onrushing Harpoons away from them, and the order was passed to the USS Simpson (FFG-56), steaming closest to the attacking Joshan, to open fire.

The USS Simpson fired two RIM-66 Standard Missiles at the Joshan 1132hrs, and thus joined history's first missile-to-missile naval surface battle. The Joshan, lacking chaff systems was unable to avoid the onrushing missiles and took both rounds in her forward superstructure, which killed or injured most of her officers and topside crew. The Joshan wallowed to a halt and burst into flames forward as the American attack continued, and after a Harpoon from the USS Bagley failed to hit the burning Joshan, the hulk was taken under 5-inch gun fire from the USS Wainwright until it rolled over and sank in this general area at 1200hrs on April 18th, 1988." at

As I live in a country which doesn't have access to the sea I'm not biased against nor toward the Harpoon -- we could hardly use it in the middle of Europe And probably I could find about failures of the other ASMs, too. But I try to be impartial.

Although specs are not everything if you do an apple to apple comparison there are some difference.

• _____________Harpoon____________SSM-1
• Range________125Km+___________150-200km
• Warhead______221 kg______________270kg
• Speed________864 km/h___________1150km/h
• Guidance_____active radar________Inertial and active radar
  system_______terminal homing

JMSDF will be up grading the SSM-1B to include IR terminal guidance for better identification between structural wall and moored ships within harbor in the near future according to evaluation sheet.
According to their evaluation of Harpoon blockⅡ they found certain criteria lacking such as range and had advised to up grade the SSM-1 to meet specification of their needs.

SamuraiBlue said:

Although specs are not everything if you do an apple to apple comparison there are some difference.
...

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SamuraiBlue: Do you know if it's possible to guide Type 90 ASM from Japanese ships (by for example mid-course datalink as in Teseo MK2/A )?