Japan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Re: Japan's military build-up

Jeff Head said:

Time for a little reality check here Thunderchief. You actually think Russia wil start attacking third party commercial shipping coming into Japan over these islands in your scenario? That's just crazy thinking. That would ensure war with those countries...forget the ship owners, Russia would soon find themselves at war with those governments of the ships whom they attack. They will not escalate a scenario about the islands in this fashion.

What would happen is that an exclusion zone would be set up around the conflict warning any commercial shipping away from those specific areas. That's what would happen in such a scanrio. It would have to be an all out war scenarion that would lead to what you propose.

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Britain declared naval exclusion zone around Falklands , threatening to fire without warning on any ship from any country that dares to enter that zone . Yet nobody declared war on Britain . And this is not only case and you are well aware of that . Russia could simply declare exclusion zone around whole of Japan , especially on the east side (Pacific and East China Sea )

Jeff Head said:

The tankers do not have to venture far to sea. They refuel the aircraft coming and going because taking off rerquires large amounts of fuel. So they refuel them near the base, and then just far enough to ensure they get home. While doing so, they themselves are protected by very strong AWACS aircraft and fighters. Read up a little more on doctrine.

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If tankers stay in relative safety over Japan they could not increase range of the fighters by much (maybe 20-30% ) . And those same fighters would need to venture far out in the ocean to intercept long range Russian bombers , which ain't exactly slow as you now ( Tu-95 is one of the fastest turboprops , Tu-22Ms are supersonic etc ) .

Jeff Head said:

Japan is not trying to project power to some distant spot. Your own scenario is about islands that are a natural extension of the Japanese islands. They just have to defend them, and they do not need aircraft carriers (though I believe the two 22DDH carriers will be able to employ the F-35Bs) or nuclear submarines to do that. The OPFOR has to come to them.

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Japan would need to cover ships carrying resources for Japanese islands (oil tankers before anything else , also food transports ) . Situation would be similar to WW2 , when American subs prowled near Japanese shores . Only this time it would be long range Russian bombers .

Without aircraft carriers that would be difficult , and for now Japan doesn't have any . I explained earlier why I don't think China would allow them to get any F-35Bs .

Jeff Head said:

That is why I have said that anyone who has actually worked in this industry, or who has been in any competent, modern navy who has either interfaced with ther JMSDF, or faced them at sea, knows better that to make a rediculous statement like the JMSDF is not a 1st class Navy.

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JMSDF is not 1st class Navy , or to use better term blue-water navy . I explained why .

bd popeye said:

You'd be incorrect. Have you ever been to sea and operated with the JMSDF? I have. Those mates are first rate and squared away. they know who to use their equipment. Even back when I served.

My son was once a master instructor of sonar technology for the USN who taught many JMSDF sailors. stated that of all the foreign navies he instructed the Japanese were the most knowledgeable..and their ships were always squared away. The ships he served on in two WESTPAC deployments worked closely with the JMSDF..and he states. "Those fellas sure do know what they are doing. They are squared away!"

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To clarify my position : I never said JMSDF is not well trained or professional . I would give you example what I meant : Norwegian Navy is also very well trained and professional . Would you consider them 1st class Navy ? No . And why is that ? Well , their biggest ship is a frigate

You simply cannot have 1st class Navy without aircraft carriers and nuclear subs . You need that to operate far from your land bases .

Re: Japan's military build-up

Thunderchief your continuing arguing is of no value to this forum..that stated..

Have you ever been to sea with any navy for any extended period of time?

You simply cannot have 1st class Navy without aircraft carriers and nuclear subs . You need that to operate far from your land bases .

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Japans constitution forbids them from having nuclear vessels.

And they do operate far from home.

SAN DIEGO (June 14, 2013) The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force helicopter destroyer JS Hyuga (DDH 181) departs Naval Base San Diego to participate in exercise Dawn Blitz. Dawn Blitz is a scenario-driven exercise led by the U.S. 3rd Fleet and 1 Marine Expeditionary Force that will test participants in the planning and execution of amphibious operations through a series of live training events. (U.S. Navy photo by Maile Baca/Released)

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PACIFIC OCEAN (June 14, 2013) The U.S. Marine Corps marks history by landing an MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft on a Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force helicopter destroyer JS Hyuga (DDH 181) for the first time during amphibious exercise Dawn Blitz. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Molly A. Evans/Released)

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[video=youtube;ERoINKrMuvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ERoINKrMuvQ[/video]

Thunderchief you can keep on arguing but the argument mute. Each one of us is entitled to his or her own opinion.

Re: Japan's military build-up

thunderchief said:

Britain declared naval exclusion zone around Falklands , threatening to fire without warning on any ship from any country that dares to enter that zone . Yet nobody declared war on Britain

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Which is precisely the point I made...but is not what you indicated in your original post on the matter at all. If you think that adopting the position I took to counter your own position, somehow helps your earlier argument, you are not thinking straight.

There would be no exclusion zone around the main Japanese islands in your scenario. The zone that would be established near the islands you describe would not extend to commercial vessels entering Japanese ports.

And the British did not sink ANY foreign commercial vessels that were not directly involved with the Falklands specifically...and what they did sink were Argentine vessels. Nothing entering any Argentine port or waters in uncontested areas was attacked. Yet that is precisely what you were indicating the Russians would do in your original post. So give it a rest. The scenario you described simply would not work as you envisioned it.

thunderchief said:

If tankers stay in relative safety over Japan they could not increase range of the fighters by much (maybe 20-30% ) . And those same fighters would need to venture far out in the ocean to intercept long range Russian bombers.

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Please, Thunder. You are simply wrong about this. By refueling the fighters within 150 miles of Japan's coast after take-off (well within the protective unmbrella of both Japanese AWACS and escrot fighters), and then refuleing them again as they return at a similar distance, they would almost double the range of those aircraft (because of the amount of fuel employed in take off and getting to altitude, and then those 1st 150 miles and the last 150 miles) and allow them to establish barrier caps well in excess of the range of the missiles that might be fired on Japan by the aircraft you speak of.

Would some get through? Undoubtedly.

But it would be nothing like what you proposed in your scenario where the Russian aircraft would be circiling around outside of the range of Japanese fighters and firing on the Japanese at will. As I have shown, that is simply not going to happen because the Japanese have the means to prevent it and would employ them.

thunderchief said:

JMSDF is not 1st class Navy , or to use better term blue-water navy . I explained why .

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And again, you are simply wrong. As I said earlier, you continue to damage your own position by repeating the same nonsense. They are a 1st class Navy, and everyone within the industry and other naval forces knows it, and respects them for it. They operate in the Blue Water ALL THE TIME...and very capably carry out their duties there both technically and operationally as a number of people who have been involved in the technology, the industry, and the Navies have told you her eon this thread.

No one says you have to accept that knowledge or explanation about the matter...but by not doing so, you establish for yourself an inflexibility that completely handicaps any scenario you develop or any analysis of the reality of the situation you perform.

But, heck, knock yourself out, it's no sweat off my brow.

Re: Japan's military build-up

thunderchief said:

You cannot have first class navy (blue-water navy ) without aircraft carriers and nuclear subs . That is the fact of the life . Without that , you cannot venture far from the shore and you cannot project power .

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Blue Water Navy has nothing to do with CVNs and SSBNs. If that is the case then ONLY USN and Marine Nationale are blue water navies which is also inaccurate.
Now with that being said I would argue that to be a blue water navy you should at least have a relatively decent air arm or air component with it in which case JMSDF also qualifies because in addition to a bunch or P-3s, SeaHawks and other makes they have the 2 Hyugas and very soon DDH22s even though they call them destroyers but who are they kidding LOL.

Finally like have been mentioned before to be a first class navy is more than just guns and ships. The people is what makes it happen and anyone who has served or seen the JMSDF knows they are top notch personnel. They are true professionals. Can't say that for a lot of navies in the world.

Popeye can probably vouch but even allies of the US and some NATO countries have Navy personnels that are not that squared away with a few exception like the German Navy, Dutch, Singaporean Navy, Australian Navy, New Zealand Navy etc. Some of these countries have relatively small navies but their folks are top notch.

Philipines even though is a strong ally of the US has a pretty dismal navy and I'm not talking equipment. Many of their sailors are kinda unprofessional. I would say the Indian Navy has a lot of catching up to do as well in terms of professionalism.

At any rate I would rather take an old ship with true professionals than a new ship manned by a bunch trigger happy wannabe sailors that won't or can't listen to orders or worst still wanna play hero. That type of attitude gets people killed.

Re: Japan's military build-up

Popeye can probably vouch but even allies of the US and some NATO countries have Navy personnel that are not that squared away with a few exception like the German Navy, Dutch, Singaporean Navy, Australian Navy, New Zealand Navy etc. Some of these countries have relatively small navies but their folks are top notch.

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..and the Royal Navy!..really squared away..

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OK gents let's move on to the next subject in this debate..shall we? Otherwise this line of discussion will go on way to long for this forum.

bd popeye super moderator

Re: Japan's military build-up

thunderchief said:

They operate in blue water....

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Yea, yea, thunderchief, blah, blah, blah. All of that hogwash is just a rehash of what you have already said. And, since the main modman here has already said to stop discussing it, I will not continue.

For any more responses to your now completely circular arguements, just refer to my prior post.

But a word to the wise, thunder, when Popeye says it is time to stop arguing/going on about it...he means it.

Re: Japan's military build-up

JGSDF infantry is well trained but have a few quirks. They wear a modification of German Flecktarten go classic woodland, winter woodland and recently introduced desert as well as overwhites. Gear is some what modern but Japan can do better. Main issue in that, is that JSDF are expected to buy their own kit or at least parts of it. Standard sidearm is a licenced SIG P220 in 9MM, a older gun but not bad lacks a rail system and could be improved but most everything can. SF use HK USP9 tactical. SDF issues Minebea 9 sub machine guns a derivative of the UZI its dated it was the day they signed the paper work. From time to time scuttlebut of a replacement hits the blog world but nothing really ever comes of it.SMGs are really not worth it any more a compact assault rifle offers more and can cost less. Frogmen and SF are said to pack HK MP7A1 which is perfect for a special forces unit or divers.
Howa type 89 is the main rifle of the JGSDF based on the AR18 buddy as it is reputedly nicknamed is a 5.56X45MM assault rifle. Buddy has some issues though. The magazine has holds go it meant to allow keeping count of pounds left. These holds also allow dust and dirt inside. The magazine well lacks a flair meaning it can take longer to reload the magazines also have a unique feed that prevents AR magazines from locking back after last round. Buddy pre dates rail systems although there are retrofit options. Barrel is 16inches and it comes go either a fixed or wire folding stock. It has a built-in bipod and working rifle grenade the type 6the standard GSDF never adopted a under barrel grenade launcher. It is said that the GSDF is working on either replacement or rebuilding type89 as part of their future ground soldier system new features are said to include a new rail retrofit, option of a short barrel and new adjustable stock. Go operations go Iraq SDF mounted optics lights lasers and a left-handed selecter The other rifle of the SDF is the Howa type 62 its a vintage weapon a battle rifle 762X51mm the round though has a smaller powder charge. On their way out the door these weapons are unique to the SDF as are the type 89. Special forces are said to use M4A1 as its more flexible. The SDF uses M24 sniper rifles.
The standard light machine gun is a licenced copy of the M249 the GPMG is the type 64 a 762x51mm update of the M1919Browning. At first glance a 64 could be mistaken for a FN MAG but the stock pistol grip and ribbed barrel are unique. HMG is a licenced M2 but thats more or less the norm the type 96 is a automatic grenade launcher go standard use. SDF has used Carl gustov recoil less rifles and panzerfaust3 RPGs they are and have moved a lot of their portable missile and rocket launchers to unique Japanese types like the type 1 LMAT
SDF issues PAGST style helmets and flack vests part of their Acies program is to share these out go favor of a indigenous interceptor class or better body armor and a lightweight bump helmet. Word is they are looking to give up on balistic protection for the helmet in exchange for the ability to mount modern nightvision and coms. (this might not be as bad a idea as it sounds a American company. Velocity systems recently showed a set of armour modules that mount on to existing helmets and offer protection from AK rounds. ) overall the infantry seem to be in a transition some parts could use replacement some upgrade others right about par. Infantry they are about in the same level equipment wise as France. About a step and a half ahead of the PLA. In terms of optics and communications. I would like to see some work go fire proofing of uniforms and feel that the GSDF could procure and issue plate carriers sooner then the future soldier system.

Re: JMSDF Akizuki Class DDG (19DD AEGIS-like)

How many air targets can be tracked and engaged by these Akizuki ?

Re: JMSDF Akizuki Class DDG (19DD AEGIS-like)

FORBIN said:

How many air targets can be tracked and engaged by these Akizuki ?

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Forbin The following is the best description I have found of the systems on board the Akizuki.

Akizulki Snsor/Electorni Sysem said:

OYQ-11: This is the first indigenous Japanese CDS adopting fully distributed computing architecture with the AN/UYQ-70 workstations and Link 16 capability for general-purpose destroyers of the JMSDF. In addition to the CDS, this class is equipped withSATCOM terminals with Superbirds for the MOF system. The MOF, Maritime Operation Force System is the operational C4I system commonly used in the fleet of the JMSDF, based on the ILOG architecture and interoperable with other JSDF forces. And there are also USC-42 DAMA terminals for the GCCS-M, the American counterpart of the MOF system.

FCS-3A: This is the Japanese anti-air warfare component of the battle management system. It consists of two main components, one is the dual-band and multimode radar system, and the other is the fire-control system. The FCS-3A system is the derivative of the FCS-3 system of the Hyūga class helicopter destroyer, but this system is introduced with the local area defense (LAD) capability. The SAM system integrated with FCS-3A is ESSM.

Thales ICWI: The FCS-3A incorporates the Thales: X band Mid Course Guidance with Sampled Data Homing, commonly called ICWI. Thales indicates that this allows a vessel to ,bring a broadside to bear upon many simultaneous air targets, equivalent to the capability of two to three Arleigh Burke class destroyers. ICWI is a guidance principle based on semi active homing. With semi active homing, the target is tracked and illuminated by radars on the ship. The missile tracks the target with its purely passive radar and homes in on the reflected energy. As only the target is illuminated, the missile has less trouble sorting out the target from its surroundings, compared to an active missile. The great advantage of this principle is that large amounts of illumination power can be brought to bear on the target to prevent jamming and misleading. I have not been able to find out precisely how many targets can be tracked simultaneously, but this gives one an idea.

OQQ-22: ASW and EW capabilities are made up of the OQQ-22 integrated sonar suite sub-system (hull-sonar and OQR-3 towed array, which is the Japanese equivalent of the US Navy AN/SQQ-89) and the NOLQ-3D digitalized EW suite sub-system. These sub-systems are integrated with NOYQ-1B Wide area network.

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The Japanese claim that the totality of all of these these systems is supposedly comparable to the systems on the new US Navy Zumwalt class destroyer

Re: JMSDF Akizuki Class DDG (19DD AEGIS-like)

Jeff, do you have a source in regards to this ships final production run? Everywhere I've looked it appears only 4 of these destroyers are on order, with not even a shadow for more down the pipeline.