J-XX Fighter Aircraft

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crobato

Colonel
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Re: J-xx

By "environment" I don't mean the just the ground, but rather all the space around the fighter, including the ground, but also objects on the ground and in the air. Enemy fighters and missiles in particular. A video-game AI has 100% accurate information,

The last statement is certainly wrong in my experience with video game AIs.

a real-life robot has incomplete information. Incomplete information is very very hard for computers to deal with.

But so does humans. Computers are merely reflections of human intelligence. Any computer can deal with incomplete information using the same systems and methods as humans can. AI is merely coded human intelligence.

But people can make good decisions even in the presence of uncertainty (at least in spatial navigation - humans are very bad at some other areas of uncertainty, but this we do extremely well).

Computer can use fuzzy logic to determine decisions through incomplete information and uncertainty. Its really all a matter of programming.


Certainly. And human operators can interpret the information from an IRST. The computer has serious problems understanding the data.

I don't think so. As a matter of fact, a computer may be able to distinguish friend or foe much faster.

Yes and no. It can combine the information, but it can't interpret the information nearly as well. Especially because the reliability of the information will depend very much on the situation.

Whoever told you that needs to revise his understanding of AI.

Where this stuff works today it's always in controlled environments where you can make a lot of assumptions about what sort of inputs the sensors will get. Even in the DARPA contest, the trees always look like trees and random objects don't move into the scene. Those robots would have serious problems if you started wandering around the desert in a tree costume. Actually, just wandering around in their field of view at all would probably confuse them. In battle the enemy will deliberately try to confuse you.

... Ami.

Pathfinding is a serious problem with AIs, though I have seen them improve even in games. But on the air, that is not a problem by any means.
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

The last statement is certainly wrong in my experience with video game AIs.

You're missing the point. The "mistakes" a game AI makes aren't the mistakes that a robot would make, they're mistakes that the game designers have deliberately inserted to make the game seem more realistic.

But so does humans. Computers are merely reflections of human intelligence. Any computer can deal with incomplete information using the same systems and methods as humans can. AI is merely coded human intelligence.

They're not at all.

First, we don't really understand how people do this stuff yet. Second, even if we did, computers with raw power comparable to a human have yet to be built - even the monster super-computers that do weather forecasting and nuclear simulations don't have the raw computing power to simulate a human brain, even if we actually understood how to build such a simulation.

Computers don't think like humans at all. That's why apparently simple tasks like human face recognition are at the cutting edge of computer technology, while things we thought would be difficult, like playing chess, were solved many years ago.

Computer can use fuzzy logic to determine decisions through incomplete information and uncertainty. Its really all a matter of programming.

That's like saying building an F-22 is "all a matter of engineering". It's true, but it's a _lot_ of engineering. I have no doubt that the problems will be solved eventually, but I have my doubts that it will happen within the next 30 years. It's possible, but far from certain.

Whoever told you that needs to revise his understanding of AI.

On the contrary, I have a very good understanding of AI. My first real job was programming image recognition software, and I've kept up with developments in the field since then. I'm sorry I'm not better at explaining the problems.

... Ami.
 

crobato

Colonel
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Re: J-xx

You're missing the point. The "mistakes" a game AI makes aren't the mistakes that a robot would make, they're mistakes that the game designers have deliberately inserted to make the game seem more realistic.

Still not the same. For example, in RTS games, the NPC AI does take consideration of limited knowledge of the battlefield, unless when it is deliberately cheating.

They're not at all.

First, we don't really understand how people do this stuff yet. Second, even if we did, computers with raw power comparable to a human have yet to be built - even the monster super-computers that do weather forecasting and nuclear simulations don't have the raw computing power to simulate a human brain, even if we actually understood how to build such a simulation.

Who told you that raw power is needed? You only need computers to exercise a certain process pattern. A human brain has to do a lot more things---and for this reason, carries a lot more baggage. You need neurons for taste, emotions, and all that stuff. A dogfight AI needs only to do some simple things, and therefore can be made much simpler, more streamlined. Because of excess baggage, a human brain despite all its computational power, cannot compute simple serial equations very well; yet a simple calculator can do.

Computers don't think like humans at all. That's why apparently simple tasks like human face recognition are at the cutting edge of computer technology, while things we thought would be difficult, like playing chess, were solved many years ago.

They don't need to think like humans after all. An insect for example, with vastly less computational power than a human, can perform far more complex aerial maneuvers.

Human face recognition is at the cutting edge of computer technology? Get serious. Its commonly used now even in commercial digital cameras.

That's like saying building an F-22 is "all a matter of engineering". It's true, but it's a _lot_ of engineering. I have no doubt that the problems will be solved eventually, but I have my doubts that it will happen within the next 30 years. It's possible, but far from certain.

You will be surprised but an F-22 is a dinosaur when it comes to sheer numbers of operations compared to a simple 3rd gen game console. A PS3 computational power is measured in teraflops.

On the contrary, I have a very good understanding of AI. My first real job was programming image recognition software, and I've kept up with developments in the field since then. I'm sorry I'm not better at explaining the problems.
... Ami.

And who told you that you need face recognition in dogfight AI? All you need is plane recognition, which can also be augmented by other sensors, recognition through radar or thermal signatures for example. Plane recognition through digital IIR is here already, even in missile seekers like AIM-9X. MAWS, RWRs, IFF, they already designed conclude whether a target is friendly or enemy and do not need the pilot to make that kind of decision.

The thing is, you think this needs a human level of intelligence to perform. I don't think so. The act of fighting and killing on a one on one level can be performed at a low level. The act of creative strategy can be left to a human. While the human brain is vastly more complex, it is also vastly less efficient against simpler linear tasks. We as humans carry too much baggage.

And the thing to remember, an AI driven craft is the only way to create an airplane with a post 9G maneuverbility. Humans simply cannot endure past 9G repeatedly.

If destroyed, the AI craft can immedietely be replaced. No more years of training is needed. Only a module is installed. The AI in these modules can be constantly refined through data collection from evaluation of operations and missions.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: J-xx

uhhh ... just as there are no real hard facts or news about the XXJ ... just this nice looking graphic to enjoy !
 

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AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

Still not the same. For example, in RTS games, the NPC AI does take consideration of limited knowledge of the battlefield, unless when it is deliberately cheating.

Ok, I'll take this step by step...

The video game machine has 100% knowledge of the game universe since everything is a simulation in that game. Since a human wouldn't know everything, it "tells" the AI about the things that a human would know, and the AI acts accordingly.

The difference between this and the AI being a real robot is that there's no "lets create a map of our universe from sensor data" step. The map that the AI has is the game designer's guess of what a human in the situation would have, not what a robot in that situation would have. A real robot would have a hard time creating such a map from the available real-world (not game universe) data.

They don't need to think like humans after all. An insect for example, with vastly less computational power than a human, can perform far more complex aerial maneuvers.

No argument there. I brought this up because you claimed that a computer program is some sort of embodyment of human thought. That's not true.

Human face recognition is at the cutting edge of computer technology? Get serious. Its commonly used now even in commercial digital cameras.

No, digital cameras are able to guess that there's a face in the picture (and can be pretty easily fooled even about that). They can't recognize who that face is.

State-of-the-art software (not what's in your camera) _is_ able to recognize faces under ideal conditions. But this is cutting-edge, and pretty easy to fool. Add poor lighting, strange angles, or a little makeup, and even the most advanced software has trouble telling a human face from a monkey.

I brought up this example to contrast what computers are good at vs. what people are good at. "Chess" is an example of a problem that's pretty hard for a human, and fairly easy for modern computers. Face recognition (knowing your mother's face, for example) is something that's trivial for humans, but exceptionally difficult for computers.

And who told you that you need face recognition in dogfight AI? All you need is plane recognition, which can also be augmented by other sensors, recognition through radar or thermal signatures for example. Plane recognition through digital IIR is here already, even in missile seekers like AIM-9X. MAWS, RWRs, IFF, they already designed conclude whether a target is friendly or enemy and do not need the pilot to make that kind of decision.

Face recognition was just an illustrative example.

All of the systems you mention can be fooled, and are fooled fairly often. That's what ECM, flares, stealth, and camauflage paint are for. They're accurate enough to still be useful, but only because there's a human making some basic decisions.

I know it's an old example, and the technology is better now, but remember in 1988 a U.S. Aegis system shot down a civilian Airbus. A large commercial jet taking off (ascending) was mistaken for an F-14 on an attack run (descending) and shot down. There was a lot of human error involved here to, but it's still a pretty dramatic illustration of the limits of technology.

A modern system is a lot more advanced, but even so, this was a single plane that looked nothing like an F-14 and wasn't doing anything to try to fool the Aegis. No ECM, no stealth. Imagine how many mistakes will be made in a battlefield with lots of enemies and friendlies, each trying to fool the other.

... Ami.
 

Unit88

Banned Idiot
Re: J-xx

yes very good point. Nowadays I feel that people need to face reality and realize that war isnt at all like the video games where you sit in a tank and blow up all the bad guys. it is tough and technology will fail and the will of the humans will be the real factor which turns the tide of the battle. No matter how advanced a tank is or how well designed a rifle is, if the operater of the weapon isnt competent then they will die. take for example, the AK series. although compared to the American M-4 carbine, m16 (updated versiions which i forgot the names of) are less advanced will still pierce through a US soldier kelvlar body armor. True the 7.62 round might save you from one or two shots, in a battlefield, those one and two shots means that you are on the ground wheezing for a while and then get pummeled by more shots. The point i am trying to make here is that advanced technology is one thing, the actual fighting is another.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

I don't buy that a programmer knows everything about each and every possibility of a game or any other kind of software. The whole basis of "exception handling" in different programing paradigms is an admission that it is not possible to program for each and every scenario.

Also i don't understand why can't the same sensors be used to feed to a computer instead of displaying it to a human. A human pilot also makes his decision based on set of rules that are ingrained him/her through training and experience. Same is very much possible with machines and their software. Infact a machine can pay more simltenous attention to different sensors data and take less time to apply the same rules on which a human being will in that situation.
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

I don't buy that a programmer knows everything about each and every possibility of a game or any other kind of software. The whole basis of "exception handling" in different programing paradigms is an admission that it is not possible to program for each and every scenario.

It's not a question of knowing each scenario. You, and a lot of people, are imagining that figuring out the correct response to some enemy action is the problem. That's actually relatively easy, as is the path-finding problem somebody mentioned earlier. The problem is knowing what's actually happening. You can compute the strategically correct response, but if your input data is incorrect then it will still be wrong.

Also i don't understand why can't the same sensors be used to feed to a computer instead of displaying it to a human. A human pilot also makes his decision based on set of rules that are ingrained him/her through training and experience. Same is very much possible with machines and their software. Infact a machine can pay more simltenous attention to different sensors data and take less time to apply the same rules on which a human being will in that situation.

But machines can't do this with today's technology, and are in fact pretty far away from being able to do this. It will happen some day, but for the next generation of fighters to be pilotless it would have to happen in the next 30 years, which I have doubts about.

For another every-day example, you've probably seen "captchas" on the web (
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. These are the distorted letters that you have to type in on some web sites. The letters are there because they're easy for humans to read, but hard for image recognition software. If you can get past the captcha then the web site owner knows that you're human.

... Ami.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

Ok, I'll take this step by step...

The video game machine has 100% knowledge of the game universe since everything is a simulation in that game. Since a human wouldn't know everything, it "tells" the AI about the things that a human would know, and the AI acts accordingly.

Unless the AI is intended to cheat, the AI still acts under what is called fog of war. Otherwise the AI would not act in a way inconsistent to the fog of war.

The AI acts as a seperate process or thread within the video game.

The difference between this and the AI being a real robot is that there's no "lets create a map of our universe from sensor data" step. The map that the AI has is the game designer's guess of what a human in the situation would have, not what a robot in that situation would have. A real robot would have a hard time creating such a map from the available real-world (not game universe) data.

That does not change the fact that the AI will still function under conditions of incomplete information.

No argument there. I brought this up because you claimed that a computer program is some sort of embodyment of human thought. That's not true.

For the most part, a computer program is a coded process of human logic.

No, digital cameras are able to guess that there's a face in the picture (and can be pretty easily fooled even about that). They can't recognize who that face is.

That is only because they were not designed to do the "who
recognition. But there are surveillance cameras that do.

State-of-the-art software (not what's in your camera) _is_ able to recognize faces under ideal conditions. But this is cutting-edge, and pretty easy to fool. Add poor lighting, strange angles, or a little makeup, and even the most advanced software has trouble telling a human face from a monkey.

Even then, these software can still conclude and provide a percentage of accuracy (80% possiblity of true match, for example).

Even humans have problem distinguishing faces and features under those conditions either.

I brought up this example to contrast what computers are good at vs. what people are good at. "Chess" is an example of a problem that's pretty hard for a human, and fairly easy for modern computers. Face recognition (knowing your mother's face, for example) is something that's trivial for humans, but exceptionally difficult for computers.

Face recognition is not important for a dogfight AI. Plane recognition is. Currently, IIR missile seekers **are** already doing plane recognition. MAWS and RWRs are already doing recognition.

Aircraft maneuvering happens to be something fairly easy for modern computers because it is essentially still computed logic.

Face recognition was just an illustrative example.

All of the systems you mention can be fooled, and are fooled fairly often. That's what ECM, flares, stealth, and camauflage paint are for. They're accurate enough to still be useful, but only because there's a human making some basic decisions.

I am sorry to tell you but human judgement do not participate in ECM, flares and decoy recognition and discrimination. All these are strictly automated.


I know it's an old example, and the technology is better now, but remember in 1988 a U.S. Aegis system shot down a civilian Airbus. A large commercial jet taking off (ascending) was mistaken for an F-14 on an attack run (descending) and shot down. There was a lot of human error involved here to, but it's still a pretty dramatic illustration of the limits of technology.

That is straight human error. It was a human that made that decision.

A modern system is a lot more advanced, but even so, this was a single plane that looked nothing like an F-14 and wasn't doing anything to try to fool the Aegis. No ECM, no stealth. Imagine how many mistakes will be made in a battlefield with lots of enemies and friendlies, each trying to fool the other.

... Ami.

No better or worst if its human or AI. This is not an issue of human vs. AI, but an issue of better IFF discrimination technology and procedures.
 
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