J-XX Fighter Aircraft

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AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

Unless the AI is intended to cheat, the AI still acts under what is called fog of war. Otherwise the AI would not act in a way inconsistent to the fog of war.

You guys are driving me nuts with the whole video game thing. The bottom line is that video games don't rely on sensor data. They _simulate_ the fog of war. Thus video game developers don't have to think about the really hard problems in AI.

When I talk about acting on incomplete information, I'm talking about deciding whether and where there is a threat based on conflicting and incomplete sensor data.

If you could rely on your sensors then you could probably also rely on your data-link, in which case this whole issue is moot. You can just have a human pilot operating the plane remotely.

Face recognition is not important for a dogfight AI. Plane recognition is. Currently, IIR missile seekers **are** already doing plane recognition. MAWS and RWRs are already doing recognition.

Under much more limited conditions than what you would need to make a fully automated fighter work. Once the pilot has determined where the enemy is (with the help of sensors), he can tell the missile to track an object. The reason countermeasures work is because the missiles can be fooled. A human pilot wouldn't be fooled by flares, for example, but a missile can be.

For a missile, being fooled by flares isn't the end of the world. The missile is wasted, but missiles are relatively low cost and you can fire another one. Not so if the fighter itself is a robot and it starts shooting it's entire missile payload at a decoy flare.

Aircraft maneuvering happens to be something fairly easy for modern computers because it is essentially still computed logic.

Yes, and I've said repeatedly that maneuvering isn't the problem.

I am sorry to tell you but human judgement do not participate in ECM, flares and decoy recognition and discrimination. All these are strictly automated.

And not accurate enough to rely on. The computers provide hints, but he pilots use their judgment.

That is straight human error. It was a human that made that decision.

True. The captain appears to have been a nut. But the decisions were made based on information the computers provided. A competent captain would have questioned the data.

... Ami.
 

Scratch

Captain
Re: J-xx

I think in that AEGIS incident, the data was correct, as the recording later showed, the captain interpreted it wrong.
I read about a Python 5 test firing were the missile with it's EO imaging seeker locked onto a target after launch, the first time a non RF guided missile did so. This marks a significant step forward.
Some years ago I read about ECR 90 (now CAPTOR) that it should be able to ID the types of the targeted aircraft BVR, just through the radar returns. Did they achieve this? If so, then with AESAs it should become even simpler.
In "early years" were those UACVs are still augmentation, they could still be data fed/ guided by AWACS or even fighters close by. But then again, if they are set to search an area with their radars, detect an object and get no valid IFF signal return, I think these UCAVs should become able to do an engagement.
The problem to me seems to be more in avonics miniaturisation and imlpementing the neccessary computing power to evaluate all data, but not in inventing new computing patterns.
And since we are talking about maned fighter replacements in 30+ years, I think at that time computers will be advanced enouhg to constantly compute the best engagement pattern the airframe/engine combo will give them and launch AAMs themeselves.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

It's not a question of knowing each scenario. You, and a lot of people, are imagining that figuring out the correct response to some enemy action is the problem. That's actually relatively easy, as is the path-finding problem somebody mentioned earlier. The problem is knowing what's actually happening. You can compute the strategically correct response, but if your input data is incorrect then it will still be wrong.
How would a human make a difference in such situation when he/she is given similar incorrect data and is asked to apply the rules?

But machines can't do this with today's technology, and are in fact pretty far away from being able to do this. It will happen some day, but for the next generation of fighters to be pilotless it would have to happen in the next 30 years, which I have doubts about.
How can you say that? You just have to look at the level of automation involved in space programs to robotics. Robots are being trusted for surgical procedures, thats like directly giving the life of a human being in the hands of robots. All they get from humans is decision. You can aptly reproduce a model based on training that is imparted on human beings and let the machine take charge.

For another every-day example, you've probably seen "captchas" on the web (
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. These are the distorted letters that you have to type in on some web sites. The letters are there because they're easy for humans to read, but hard for image recognition software. If you can get past the captcha then the web site owner knows that you're human.

... Ami.

lol. They are talking about the programs used by spammers to do image recognition. The level of technology that is available to military industrial complex is leagues and bounds beyond that. Also if you think about it, it's not about the computer or machine or software but alogorithm to solve such problems. If humans are unable to device such an algorithm then that is not an argument against precision,consistancy and speed of today's machines.

But again, here is how to defeat CAPTCHAs :)
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

You guys are driving me nuts with the whole video game thing. The bottom line is that video games don't rely on sensor data. They _simulate_ the fog of war. Thus video game developers don't have to think about the really hard problems in AI.

It does not change the fact that AI operating independently on seperate threads have to process incomplete information.

When I talk about acting on incomplete information, I'm talking about deciding whether and where there is a threat based on conflicting and incomplete sensor data.

And when did humans actually make better judgements?

If you could rely on your sensors then you could probably also rely on your data-link, in which case this whole issue is moot. You can just have a human pilot operating the plane remotely.

Like all links, vulnerability to ECM cutoff.
Under much more limited conditions than what you would need to make a fully automated fighter work. Once the pilot has determined where the enemy is (with the help of sensors), he can tell the missile to track an object. The reason countermeasures work is because the missiles can be fooled. A human pilot wouldn't be fooled by flares, for example, but a missile can be.

Maybe you have not seen how missiles have become flare resistant lately.

For a missile, being fooled by flares isn't the end of the world. The missile is wasted, but missiles are relatively low cost and you can fire another one. Not so if the fighter itself is a robot and it starts shooting it's entire missile payload at a decoy flare.

Again, a moot argument that is obsoleted by newest developments.

And not accurate enough to rely on. The computers provide hints, but he pilots use their judgment.

Judgements are actually, a decision table set by a number of IF...Then... branching conditions.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Re: J-xx

IMO, there'll be immense cost savings with UAVs in terms of training & maintenance costs. With pilots, huge amount of resources are used to train & re-train them, not to mention the resources needed to retain them from being poached by the commercial sectors.
With UAVs, once tactics are developed & fine tuned, they just need to be fed into all UAVs' systems. The costs saved can be used to buy more UAVs.
And with the high Gs maneauvering UAVs are able to do, they may be able to evade AAMs from more modern & stealthy manned aircraft.
I think these are the 2 main advantages of future UAVs.
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

How would a human make a difference in such situation when he/she is given similar incorrect data and is asked to apply the rules?

Humans can apply common sense in a way that computers cannot. I could give you scenarios and you could quite reasonably say that a computer can be programmed to overcome these, but the point is that humans aren't programmed. There's no fixed set of rules. We know how to deal with situations even if we've never encountered them before and nobody has given us a "rule" on what to do.

How can you say that? You just have to look at the level of automation involved in space programs to robotics. Robots are being trusted for surgical procedures, thats like directly giving the life of a human being in the hands of robots. All they get from humans is decision. You can aptly reproduce a model based on training that is imparted on human beings and let the machine take charge.

Nope. No AI has ever performed surgery. Some surgical procedures have been done by remote control.

The space program has used AI with the mars rovers, but again these are in a very limited environment. Mars is a pretty bleak place, and no martians have turned up to play practical jokes on the rovers.

They are talking about the programs used by spammers to do image recognition. The level of technology that is available to military industrial complex is leagues and bounds beyond that.

No it's not. In areas where there is a significant civilian application (like AI) the military doesn't have tons of secret technology. It's not the same as stealth or submarine tech.

But again, here is how to defeat CAPTCHAs :)
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Again, very limited. Modern software is able to get around specific capcha algorithms. The human brain defeats all of these and all future captchas without any training, and without being designed to solve any of them.

Do you see the difference? If I know you're going to distort an image in a specific way I can design an algorithm to reverse that distortion. But if you change the nature of the distortion I have to re-write the algorithm. The human brain manages to do this even though it's never been programmed with any knowledge of how the image was distorted.

Maybe you have not seen how missiles have become flare resistant lately.

So missiles can't be defeated? What's the point in having fighters at all then, if missiles can reliably shoot them all down?

Judgements are actually, a decision table set by a number of IF...Then... branching conditions.

Humans don't make decisions that way.

... Ami.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

Humans can apply common sense in a way that computers cannot. I could give you scenarios and you could quite reasonably say that a computer can be programmed to overcome these, but the point is that humans aren't programmed. There's no fixed set of rules. We know how to deal with situations even if we've never encountered them before and nobody has given us a "rule" on what to do.

But you don't need common sense with a predator. You need a mission, and a focus to achieve that mission.

Nope. No AI has ever performed surgery. Some surgical procedures have been done by remote control.

Irrelevant. We are not asking AI to perform surgery.

The space program has used AI with the mars rovers, but again these are in a very limited environment. Mars is a pretty bleak place, and no martians have turned up to play practical jokes on the rovers.

excuse me, but you don't the difference between pathfinding in a surface environment and pathfinding (or the sheer lack of it) in a completely 3D space.

No it's not. In areas where there is a significant civilian application (like AI) the military doesn't have tons of secret technology. It's not the same as stealth or submarine tech.

I don't understand.

Again, very limited. Modern software is able to get around specific capcha algorithms. The human brain defeats all of these and all future captchas without any training, and without being designed to solve any of them.

Sorry but what?

The human brain carries excessive complication and baggage. Emotions, morals, conscience and stuff like that. We train to overcome this baggage and because we are also basically and neurologically land lubbers. An AI can be made from scratch, focused in this mission and without carrying the unnecessary baggage.

Do you see the difference? If I know you're going to distort an image in a specific way I can design an algorithm to reverse that distortion. But if you change the nature of the distortion I have to re-write the algorithm. The human brain manages to do this even though it's never been programmed with any knowledge of how the image was distorted.

Irrelevant. All you really need to know is Friend or Foe, and there are cooperative and noncooperative measures to do that. Even today, we rely on our IFF completely electronically. Learn more about IFF procedures and systems.

So missiles can't be defeated? What's the point in having fighters at all then, if missiles can reliably shoot them all down?

Now you are finally realizing something.

Humans don't make decisions that way.

But that's what all you need in a combat robot.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

Humans can apply common sense in a way that computers cannot. I could give you scenarios and you could quite reasonably say that a computer can be programmed to overcome these, but the point is that humans aren't programmed. There's no fixed set of rules. We know how to deal with situations even if we've never encountered them before and nobody has given us a "rule" on what to do.
Humans are indeed programmed over the years and mostly by their experiences. Guess why training is emphesized over so much in military world? Why they drill the same procedures over and ovr and over again?

Nope. No AI has ever performed surgery. Some surgical procedures have been done by remote control.
That was an argument for level of technology available. That is precision and sensor technology.


The space program has used AI with the mars rovers, but again these are in a very limited environment. Mars is a pretty bleak place, and no martians have turned up to play practical jokes on the rovers.
Mars a limited environment? lol


No it's not. In areas where there is a significant civilian application (like AI) the military doesn't have tons of secret technology. It's not the same as stealth or submarine tech.
DARPA has been at the forefront of computer revolution. Can you tell me where in civil world you have seen application of AI? Do try to look up some applications for military already in use.

Again, very limited. Modern software is able to get around specific capcha algorithms. The human brain defeats all of these and all future captchas without any training, and without being designed to solve any of them.
Yep. We are not saying AI be used to solve such problems. We are saying Humans designing AI based systems for solving the problems. Ofcourse Algorithems come from humans.


Do you see the difference? If I know you're going to distort an image in a specific way I can design an algorithm to reverse that distortion. But if you change the nature of the distortion I have to re-write the algorithm. The human brain manages to do this even though it's never been programmed with any knowledge of how the image was distorted.
The process for redesigning, if you could again nail it down then a machine would be able to do it faster in a more time critical fashion than any human being. No pilot common sense can make any difference if the other system at the other end has been changed and they have to deal with it in time critical fashion. Why would you portray that as an argument against machine based aircraft?
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
Re: J-xx

Ok. This thread has gotten silly.

I was thinking about responding, but you can read my previous posts, they already address the points brought up. We should get back to the actual topic of the thread.

There's lots of material about AI available on the 'Net if you want to know the actual state of technology. PM me if you need help finding something specific.

... Ami.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: J-xx

I know how it is, Ami, I'm totally with you on this one. I just didn't have the willpower to go against the windmills in this thread. And yes, arguments have made a whole circle... it would be silly to try to go on when its evident no results would be made.

On topic - wouldn't it be cool if JXX came out before pakfa? Which seems quite doable, knowing the russians. Then again, lately their rhetoric has picked up steam and they are more than often claiming 2009 as first flight date. That might not bode well for the 'race' with JXX...
 
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