J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

Krabat1976 said:

True but remember that F22 induction was delayed by budget constrain, and by the end of cold war that reduced the necessity of such plane and slowed down the acquisition process.
As for JXX, time will tell, but I am confident because I don't think this is the first taxi drive at all: considering the pace at which chinese disclose information, I wouldn't be surprised if the first test of such ariplane have been realized several times ago.

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At the same time as China's military and economic power builds I think it's become more willing to disclose information, because the nature of information leaks has changed as China has become stronger. In the 90s while it was still catching up to the rest of the world leaked information lent itself to a position of weakness. Now with China almost caught up with the world leaked information indicates a position of strength.

While the F-22's production timeline was hampered by budget constraints, keep in mind the US had already put into production 2 other stealth aircraft before hand, and so had much more experience putting stealth aircraft into production than China had. I think with those in mind the length of production assembly should equivocate.

Re: New Generation Fighter

bladerunner said:

Geez think about it man What do you think might happen if the Russians decide that the Chinese plane is a threat as well as stealing the limelight from their 5th gen aircraft. Prior to Red Moon's post" I felt it its a perfectly legitimate viewpoint, if indeed they are according to Janes, relying on the 117S engine, in the preliminary/development stages.

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Jane is wrong, as the Chinese plane will rely on WS-15.

Re: New Generation Fighter

raul said:

I dont think the engine is the 117S engine. The pic shows the engine tail is quite short compared to the russian's. The engine resembled the Taihang family.
If its not WS15, I think its enhanced Taihang with more thrust..

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I agree with you.

It's obvious that the nozzles are ejector nozzles which are also used on the engines of Taihang family, not 117s's thrust vectoring nozzles.

Since WS-10 has passed its design authetication for 5 years, it is reasonable that Chinese may have developed a derivative engine with T/W ratio of 8.5-9 from Taihang to power the fourth generation fighter.

It is impossible that the engines are a pair of WS-15. If a WS-10, which passed its design authentication 5 years ago, was still immature as some members here deeply believed in to fly with a third generation fighter J-11, who would believe WS-15, a engine even hasn't left its test bed, could be allowed to power a newly designed fourth generation fighter into sky?

As for 117s, I don't think Russian would offer it to help China developing her own fourth genertation fighters. Even if Russian would, I don't think they need to keep silence and give up the opportunity boasting how much China depends on Russian technology.

I think maybe WS-15 will not be available when J-20 goes into service, so the designers have to use canards to make up the insufficiency of thrust and the lack of thrust vectoring ability of the engines.

Re: New Generation Fighter

70092 said:

Btw, the commander of PLAAF has arrived at CAC today.

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The user has came to see the plane, so it seems the first flight will take place within the next couple of days.

Re: New Generation Fighter

I just had a thought. What if instead of the 117s, a prototype of the WS-15, or WS-10A, the plane is using a prototype of the fabled WS-10G? Hopefully I don't start a rumour with this. IT IS SPECULATION.

Re: New Generation Fighter

latenlazy said:

I just had a thought. What if instead of the 117s, a prototype of the WS-15, or WS-10A, the plane is using a prototype of the fabled WS-10G? Hopefully I don't start a rumour with this. IT IS SPECULATION.

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Very probable. Look at this comparison

F-22 : 2 x Pratt & Whitney F119 (156 kN each)
F-35 : 1 x Pratt & Whitney F135 ( 180 kN )

WS-10G : 155 kN
WS-15 : 180 kN

Maybe there are 2 different fighter programme going on, both using a dedicated engine.

Re: New Generation Fighter

cloyce said:

Very probable. Look at this comparison

F-22 : 2 x Pratt & Whitney F119 (156 kN each)
F-35 : 1 x Pratt & Whitney F135 ( 180 kN )

WS-10G : 155 kN
WS-15 : 180 kN

Maybe there are 2 different fighter programme going on, both using a dedicated engine.

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Unfortunately without evidence this is just a conjecture at best. We haven't even heard anything about WS-10G beyond that diagram we saw a year or two back. The most recent rumours we've been getting have involved the WS-10B going into production, so it's a thought, but not a very verifiable one.

Re: New Generation Fighter

cloyce said:

Very probable. Look at this comparison

F-22 : 2 x Pratt & Whitney F119 (156 kN each)
F-35 : 1 x Pratt & Whitney F135 ( 180 kN )

WS-10G : 155 kN
WS-15 : 180 kN

Maybe there are 2 different fighter programme going on, both using a dedicated engine.

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The F-35's STOVL necessitated a different engine, I don't think China has that demand and it would make sense cost-wise to use the same engine.

Re: New Generation Fighter

latenlazy said:

I don't think it will fly as early as 2017. The YF-22 was completed in the early 90s and it took until the early 2000s for the plane to go into production. China has less experience with the production process and the engine is still going to be a bottle neck. 2020 is probably the more conservatively fair estimate.

I just realized that the long shape (and maybe wide body?) of the plane probably makes turning harder to do. That's probably why the canards were necessary in addition to TVC.

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I think you mean "come in service". If they can't make the J-XX fly by 2017... eurgh.

And also remember the YF-22 and YF-23 went through the whole competition stage which can be shaved off from the J-XX's development time. Also there won't be as much of the politics which surrounded the F-22 in the immediate post cold war environment.
I think 2017 is a fairly good estimate of when IOC of the non WS-15 J-XX would occur.

latenlazy said:

I just had a thought. What if instead of the 117s, a prototype of the WS-15, or WS-10A, the plane is using a prototype of the fabled WS-10G? Hopefully I don't start a rumour with this. IT IS SPECULATION.

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Sure it could be possible, but without evidence it's as groundless as the 117S idea. We'll have to hear from Maya to see how the improved WS-10A for the 4th gen fighter is going.

Re: New Generation Fighter

This is from a year ago, the descriptions match the photos so far.



So, this means there is another 4G fighter at SF.