J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

siegecrossbow said:

It shows the vertical stabilizers clearly.

Today's J-20 picture. No flight today:

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I still can't believe that the rear rudders (am I correct? the two big rear wings that slant to the side) can be moved to such large angles. The connecting joints look pretty small to me. How could it withstand the wind force when the jet is in supersonic flights. This would be like mounting a cardboard onto a formula one car like a ship's sails, it would be broken instantly.

CottageLV said:

I still can't believe that the rear rudders (am I correct? the two big rear wings that slant to the side) can be moved to such large angles. The connecting joints look pretty small to me. How could it withstand the wind force when the jet is in supersonic flights. This would be like mounting a cardboard onto a formula one car like a ship's sails, it would be broken instantly.

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Never question material strength, but if it eases your doubt, it's unlikely that deflections would be that big at supersonic speeds.

AssassinsMace said:

Depends on how you look at. China doesn't have the military industrial complex like in the US. There aren't many "private" companies providing components to the PLA that need to make a profit adding to the cost. The J-20 won't be more expensive than the F-22 and I wouldn't be surprised in the end that it won't be more expensive than the F-35 seeing how the price tag for developing that fighter seems to keep rising.

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Don't forget that many of the Chinese technologies don't have the maturity when compared to the Americans. Turbofans are a great example. It costs the Chinese more to produce those themselves than to buy it straight from the Russians, due to the high imperfection rate in production. It is true that the Chinese counterparts have much less profit margin (although still stated owned, they're no longer bureaus and departments, but companies controlled by the state through stock shares. Therefore, they do make profits and do negotiate prices), but don't forget the fact that due to the high imperfection rates and especially the lack of experience in finding low cost manufacturing methods like the Americans do, a lot of avionics actually are much more expensive in China than it is in the US.

J-20 Mighty Dragon is equipped with WS-10 variant engine

The following four pictures are from August 14, 2011:


This is the closest picture of a pilot in a J-20 cockpit.


This is an interesting picture, which captures a mix of orange and blue flames in the engines.


Parked J-20


Close-up of J-20 engine nozzle.

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I magnified the picture of the J-20 engine nozzle.

Based on the magnified J-20 engine nozzle picture, I think it is safe to say this J-20 Mighty Dragon is equipped with a variant of the WS-10 engine. Like the WS-10A, the J-20 engine nozzle is fairly short and silvery.


This WS-10A picture has been horizontally-flipped to align with the J-20 engine picture.


This AL-31F picture has been horizontally-flipped to align with the J-20 engine picture.

[Note: Thank you to "Nestea" for the first four pictures.]

CottageLV said:

Don't forget that many of the Chinese technologies don't have the maturity when compared to the Americans. Turbofans are a great example. It costs the Chinese more to produce those themselves than to buy it straight from the Russians, due to the high imperfection rate in production. It is true that the Chinese counterparts have much less profit margin (although still stated owned, they're no longer bureaus and departments, but companies controlled by the state through stock shares. Therefore, they do make profits and do negotiate prices), but don't forget the fact that due to the high imperfection rates and especially the lack of experience in finding low cost manufacturing methods like the Americans do, a lot of avionics actually are much more expensive in China than it is in the US.

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We'll that's just guessing because then there wouldn't be calls for China to be transparent. Plus all that isn't going to make the J-20 cost more than the F-22. Every prediction or assumption of the J-20 by Western experts has been basically wrong so far.

CottageLV said:

Don't forget that many of the Chinese technologies don't have the maturity when compared to the Americans. Turbofans are a great example. It costs the Chinese more to produce those themselves than to buy it straight from the Russians, due to the high imperfection rate in production. It is true that the Chinese counterparts have much less profit margin (although still stated owned, they're no longer bureaus and departments, but companies controlled by the state through stock shares. Therefore, they do make profits and do negotiate prices), but don't forget the fact that due to the high imperfection rates and especially the lack of experience in finding low cost manufacturing methods like the Americans do, a lot of avionics actually are much more expensive in China than it is in the US.

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I hesitate to say this with any certainty, but turbofans are probably now the only example where China doesn't have at least some degree of technological parity with the states. Furthermore, whatever production assembly problems they've had or are having are unlikely to stick around for another 5 years. That's probably going to be true to a lesser extent for nano-fabrication (for modern avionics).

Also keep in mind that while the production efficiency of these parts are lower than the west, so are some input costs.

Either way, when we discuss how costly the J-20 will be, we have to keep in mind to think about were Chinese manufacturing will be 5-10 years from now, as opposed to its present state. It's tricky business.

J-20 Mighty Dragon August 15, 2011 pictures


Panoramic view of Chengdu airfield


J-20 Mighty Dragon in front of control tower (notice the plethora of antennae)


We've seen this maintenance location a few times before.


J-20 flaunts its continuous-curvature design.


J-20 in front of banner in Chinese. A long time ago, I would have known what eight of those words meant (e.g. the traditional or non-simplified words).

When I was seven years old, I only knew Taiwanese and Mandarin. When I was fourteen years old, I noticed that I had switched from Taiwanese/Mandarin thought processes into forming thoughts in English. I believed I could switch back at any time, because Taiwanese and Mandarin were native languages.

Unfortunately, reality is different from theory. I'm restricted to my new default English as a Second Language thinking process. This is a public service message to be careful with making assumptions. When you switch to a different operating system, you can lose your native operating system!

[Note: Thank you to "Nestea" for the pictures.]

Do you guys think that thrust vectoring plates will be added in the future? Or if the rear will be somewhat modified? Somehow the rear design is really bothering me.

CottageLV said:

Do you guys think that thrust vectoring plates will be added in the future? Or if the rear will be somewhat modified? Somehow the rear design is really bothering me.

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Sound of it is that j-20 will be getting tvc but not f-22 type rectangular nozzles. Evening j-20 stays as it is it'll be better than f-35 and the current t-50 configuration. I'm hoping they'll pleasantly surprise us but propulsion has always been a handicap on the Chinese and the extra weight and decrease in thrustfrom rectangular nozzles maybe too much

Rumor has it that the WS-15 engine will feature round 3-d thrust vectoring nozzles.