J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
well brat, the future is just a thing for prophets, i do not think any one can predict well what could happen, but looking at the past i can say the following.


Based upon history, the first thing to die in war is truth, read the accounts of air to air battles in Korea or Vietnam read Russian, chinese sources and american and you will read so much contradictions.

each side in war claims what ever they want, russian sources declared MiG-15 was much better than the MiG-15 portraited by US historians
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in fact in Vietnam they claim when MiG-21 faced F-4 the MiG enjoyed a better kil ratio of 2:1.



Но при столкновениях с более легкими МиГ-21 F-4 начали терпеть поражение за поражением. С мая по декабрь 1966 года США в воздушных боях потеряли 47 самолетов, уничтожив при этом лишь 12 истребителей противника
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The other thing is what airplanes are downed and upon what conditions.

Take F-15, it faced mostly MiG-21s, Su-20s and MiG-23BN (the MiG-23BN is the attack version of MiG-23 without radar).
F-15 in fact only downed very few MiG-25s and MiG-29s and also few MiG-23 fighter variants (some MiG-23 fighter variants were downed by fleeing iraqi pilots)
Yes it killed MiG-25s and MiG-29s, but when it faced MiG-25s the Russians claimed some F-15 were donwed, and when they faced MiG-29 particularly in serbia in 1999 the serbs were flying MiG-29s with low maintainance and without AWACs and outnumbered at least 6-10 to 1 with outdated avionics and missiles not corresponding to the latest MiG-29M or MiG-29SMT availiable in the 1990s.

Have F-15s and F-16s been donwed yes they have but all are said been downed by SAMs or AAA by the US, while Russian sources even claimed F-14s, Tornados were downed by MiG-29s and MiG-23s .

4 октября в бой впервые вступили и новые сирийские МиГ-23МЛ, в относительно короткий срок сбившие с "сухим счетом" два израильских F-15A. Несколько позже они, также без потерь, уничтожили еще один "Игл" и один "Фантом". Эффективные ответные удары (не в последнюю очередь - удачные воздушные бои МиГ-23МЛ против F-15A)

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I do not think it will change in the future, all sides will try to lie and cover losses, perhaps we will see a few kills that can be confirmed, perhaps the sides will be well matched, or perhaps you will see air forces outnumbering and being better equipped than their rivals no one knows.


If F-22 downs Su-34s J-10s or Su-35s perhaps one or two PAKFAs or J-20s every one in the west will say like F-15 the best fighter of the world.

when in reality F-15 is more or less a match for MiG-29, slightly superior to MiG-25 or MiG-23, inferior to MiG-31 and Su-27.

Mig, lets stick to the hard data, every one in the West recognizes that the Mig 15 was an outstanding A2A platform, superior firepower, climb, and turn rates, bested our best in the early Korean conflict, finally to be countered by the F-86, which found the Mig to be a handfull, but with superior tactics and training the F-86 became the dominant aircraft.

The F-4 was designed to employ air to air missles, it had no internal gun, it was heavy, and it did not like to turn, and yes the Mig 21, was a superior A2A platform, although hard data suggests that your kill ratio is just KRAP.

Propaganda will get you killed, especially if you believe some of the nonsense you quote, and not everybody lies, in fact the poor showing in Vietnam, spawned the F-15, and later the ATF. The F-15 is quite capable even today, and would likely prove a difficult "kill" for any of the above listed competition, and to date the J-20 and T-50 have yet to enter production and are not a factor. In fact good money says the F-15 will defeat all of the above, due to superior training, tactics, avionics,and weapons. That many F-15 pilots chose to stay with it, says more good about the Eagle, than it does negative about the Raptor. Thats why I would be very carefull about your sources, quoting them reflects on your own credibility.
 

Player99

Junior Member
I hope that 2012 will be the year that ends human wars...

But I still wish to see these 5th Gen. fighters fight each other in non-lethal ways.
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Good point, air force brat. The fact that you find sources in russian that contradict american ones doesn't unconditionally mean there is dispute as to what happened. Credibility transcends culture and languages.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Mig, lets stick to the hard data,In fact good money says the F-15 will defeat all of the above, due to superior training, tactics, avionics,and weapons. That many F-15 pilots chose to stay with it, says more good about the Eagle, than it does negative about the Raptor. Thats why I would be very carefull about your sources, quoting them reflects on your own credibility.
Brat


Hard facts?


let us do this, as historian find each an every one single gunsight where you have a MiG kill and a its wreckage and get the picture, if you try to do that, which i do not think you can do that, since you can not do that this will force into believing claims.


Like i said the first thing to die in war, is truth.
and remember this "The victors are the ones who write history"


Chinese and Russians do not share your view, at least officially.


I will put you a very common example, if you speak spanish you can watch argentine videos about the Falkland (Malvinas) war, according to argentine air force pilots, they attacked the HMS invincible aircraft carrier and damaged it, and up to now some argentine pilots claim it.


British sources deny it up to now

tell me who is telling the true?
I know you can not speak spanish but i do

watch the video if you do not believe me.
on it you have the pilot him self claiming it
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other videos of the pilots claiming it
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So i ask you who can promise assure if a F-22 is downed in the future will the true appear?

when the F-117 was downed in 1999, the USAF first claimed it was not truth, it was later they said it was true when the serbs proved they down it

Now my position was everybody lie unless they prove they do not.

That is just a personal opinion.

Russians sources sometimes are crap, i know, but not because they are russian, simply because in each and every nation there are liars, claiming all coming from the west is true, it is also another big propaganda war and a big lie.


In the future will be the same.

You are free to believe the west says the true, but for me all are liars, becuase in all wars there is a propaganda campaing of each side.
 
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Maggern

Junior Member
[/COLOR]
Brat


Hard facts?


let us do this, as historian find each an every one single gunsight where you have a MiG kill and a its wreckage and get the picture, if you try to do that, which i do not think you can do that, since you can not do that this will force into believing claims.


Like i said the first thing to die in war, is truth.
and remember this "The victors are the ones who write history"


Chinese and Russians do not share your view, at least officially.


I will put you a very common example, if you speak spanish you can watch argentine videos about the Falkland (Malvinas) war, according to argentine air force pilots, they attacked the HMS invincible aircraft carrier and damaged it, and up to now some argentine pilots claim it.


British sources deny it up to now

tell me who is telling the true?
I know you can not speak spanish but i do

watch the video if you do not believe me.
on it you have the pilot him self claiming it
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other videos of the pilots claiming it
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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So i ask you who can promise assure if a F-22 is downed in the future will the true appear?

when the F-117 was downed in 1999, the USAF first claimed it was not truth, it was later they said it was true when the serbs proved they down it

Now my position was everybody lie unless they prove they do not.

That is just a personal opinion.

Russians sources sometimes are crap, i know, but not because they are russian, simply because in each and every nation there are liars, claiming all coming from the west is true, it is also another big propaganda war and a big lie.


In the future will be the same.

You are free to believe the west says the true, but for me all are liars, becuase in all wars there is a propaganda campaing of each side.

Two points to be made here. You make a valid point that politics play a role. That is why 'the official line' of any country towards warfare must be taken with a bucket of salt. To carry on from my last post, official lines are not credible, as they are not at all objective. The second point is that subjective opinion is not automatically credible either. If you go in on a raid and see some smoke as you leave, you might deduce you did some damage. The target owner might disagree and say little to no actual damage was suffered. Then it doesn't have to be a coverup, it is just a problem of perception. The pilot might not be lying, he is just mistaken. Credibility comes from gathering a variety of material and making a weighed conclusion. Thus you cannot invalidate an analysis because it is american or russian, it only depends on the quality and thus credibility. Believe me, i wish to read chinese papers about chinese issues, but sometimes one must admit that some of them are not up to standard...
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
[/COLOR]

Two points to be made here. You make a valid point that politics play a role. That is why 'the official line' of any country towards warfare must be taken with a bucket of salt. To carry on from my last post, official lines are not credible, as they are not at all objective. The second point is that subjective opinion is not automatically credible either. If you go in on a raid and see some smoke as you leave, you might deduce you did some damage. The target owner might disagree and say little to no actual damage was suffered. Then it doesn't have to be a coverup, it is just a problem of perception. The pilot might not be lying, he is just mistaken. Credibility comes from gathering a variety of material and making a weighed conclusion. Thus you cannot invalidate an analysis because it is american or russian, it only depends on the quality and thus credibility. Believe me, i wish to read chinese papers about chinese issues, but sometimes one must admit that some of them are not up to standard...
I understand what you said, i said from the start that the F-15 is technically no better than MiG-29, is just slightly better than MiG-25 but definitively inferior to MiG-31 and Su-27

i said F-15 has downed jets but also that F-15s have been down and F-16s too.

The material evidence is there.

the difference is what is claimed based upon the political perception of each side.

To give you a point, the British commander on the falklands, said that basicly the argentine pilots were so good that England almost lost the war, he said that on a Discovery channel program that If the argentine attacks did not achieve victory was not because the pilots did not hit the ships, but because their weapons did not explode.


Now what i said is the evidence never is total and the interpretation is always based upon a view why?

well i can show you F-16s that were downed in GWI, tornados, F-14s, F-15s the evidence exists, however all the western official account is AAA or SAM downed their jets.

The russians usually support their weapons and the countries they support, so the Russian accounts always support their weapons it is no different from the american side.

Of course the americans claim their pilots and aircraft downed were downed by ground fire, but the russians claim it was the opposite.

Same evidence different interpretation

The F-15 claims of invencibility do not come from Russia, Syria or Iraq, they come from the US and Israel.

So as a historian, you have to see both claims, and faily come to a conclusion.

Do i think the F-15 is so good to down anything? no i do not, once in the USA territory, the Russians brought their Su-27 and proceeded to do mock combat with F-15 that the SU-27 won, in fact the Russian pilots said the F-15 is just slightly better than the best MiG-23 variant.


this is a video about the Russian Su-27 fighter called "Su-27 the best fighter of the world"
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it has the account by the pilots that shows Su-27 is markedly superior to F-15, F-15 never has faced in real combat Su-27 flown by Russian or Chinese pilots.
[video=youtube;c4XPVvMm4j4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4XPVvMm4j4&feature=player_embedded[/video]

here you have the Russian account of the Korean war

see they have pictures of F-86s downed by MiG-15s
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Now if in the future in a war F-22 and J-20 clash or even F-22 versus T-50, the possibility you see what really happened is the same to the korean war or GWI, each side will say what is the best political defence regardless of the evidence.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I understand what you said, i said from the start that the F-15 is technically no better than MiG-29, is just slightly better than MiG-25 but definitively inferior to MiG-31 and Su-27.

Do i think the F-15 is so good to down anything? no i do not, once in the USA territory, the Russians brought their Su-27 and proceeded to do mock combat with F-15 that the SU-27 won, in fact the Russian pilots said the F-15 is just slightly better than the best MiG-23 variant.

Talk is cheap mig, you've got "no" basis to make such a nonsensical claim, the Su-27 is a great airplane, maybe even the mig 31, but lets stick to reality shall we, if everyone lies, what does that make you? All of these aircraft are fine airplanes but to compare the mig 23 to the F-15 really just illustrates your lack of objective analysis. If you find some of the tripe you source as authoritative, you really lack credibility, and if you know its krap but post it anyway just to make your point, thats just dishonest, while you accuse others of being liars?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Here's an upgraded F-15 that I believe can challenge the both the Mig-31 and/or Su-27 in the future. It's quite promising, costing less than both the F-35 and F-22 at $100 million (estimated price).

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SteelBird

Colonel
Wait... I'm not sure about the Family of Flanker vs Eagle but what's the big deal of MiG-31? Isn't MiG-31 dedicated to deal with long range, slow moving and non-agile aircraft?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Talk is cheap mig, you've got "no" basis to make such a nonsensical claim, the Su-27 is a great airplane, maybe even the mig 31, but lets stick to reality shall we, if everyone lies, what does that make you? All of these aircraft are fine airplanes but to compare the mig 23 to the F-15 really just illustrates your lack of objective analysis. If you find some of the tripe you source as authoritative, you really lack credibility, and if you know its krap but post it anyway just to make your point, thats just dishonest, while you accuse others of being liars?

Let us talk according to the topic, for those who were young in the 1980s and even 1970s, still can remember what was said in the west about MiG-29 and Su-27.

The Russians have never said MiG-23 is as capable as F-15, they said that the MiG-23 and F-15 are far behind MiG-29 and Su-27, and let us see it from design perspective, the F-15 flew in 1971 for the first time, the Su-27S was first flown in 1981, you are talking 10 years difference.

Today is similar J-20 flew 20 years after YF-22 and 14 from F-22, the MiG-23 flew in 1967, 3 years before F-15, there is a tendency in the west to overstimate Russian or non western fighters.

The Russians said the F-15 is closer to the MiG-23 in turning ability than to the MiG-29 or Su-27


Today no one knows how good are indeed J-20 or T-50 with respect F-22a


Weapons are in a race.

If you would compare F-104 versus MiG-21, you would see the MiG-21 was indeed very good, by 1970, the MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-25 surpassed F-4, that is the reason for F-15 and F-16.

F-15 surpassed MiG-25, that is the reason for MiG-31, MiG-29 and Su-27.

F-22 came and surpassed Su-27 and MiG-29, that is a fact, but Su-27 surpassed F-15.

Today J-10 is indeed more capable than F-16 and MiG-29 to the level MiG-29 and F-16 without updates will struggle against J-10.

So Russia designed T-50 and china J-20 to surpass F-22.

Your logic is as F-15 beated MiG-29 or MiG-25, F-22 will beat J-20 or T-50.

However the Serb MiG-29s were in terrible maintainance shape, had no AWACS, the Iraqi MiG-29s also were relatively new to the Iraqi pilots and western sources do not acknowledge any kill claimed by Russian sources.

So it is simply you do not believe in Russian claims, i do not blame you, you are american, you support american claims, however it does not mean the Russians accept the american acount or we only have a single version of what happened.
 
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