J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

peperez said:

Chinese and Russian system are cheaper than Occidental ones. I bet USD 100 million per plane.

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voce fala portugues?
hi peperez, i also read that Brazil was offered the T-50 co-production.

Yeah Russian and Chinese planes are cheaper, but the social cost is the same or even higher, an everage PPP per capita GDP of Russia is 3 times lower than the US and China`s is almost 6 times lower, so if you see the social cost a J-20 is as expensive as a F-22.

The difference of course is the export market, but J-20 very likely won`t be exported at least for 15 years like F-22, so the social cost for China is as high as for the US.

J-20 is not cheaper secially if you consider the life standards in the west are higher and only wages are in average cheaper, raw materials are prices usually in dollars.

MiG-29 said:

voce fala portugues?

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Falo...

MiG-29 said:

hi peperez, i also read that Brazil was offered the T-50 co-production.

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They offer us a development participation, but we are compromised to F-X2 finalists and we didn't discussed the proposal.

MiG-29 said:

Yeah Russian and Chinese planes are cheaper, but the social cost is the same or even higher, an average PPP per capita GDP of Russia is 3 times lower than the US and China`s is almost 6 times lower, so if you see the social cost a J-20 is as expensive as a F-22.

The difference of course is the export market, but J-20 very likely won`t be exported at least for 15 years like F-22, so the social cost for China is as high as for the US.

J-20 is not cheaper specially if you consider the life standards in the west are higher and only wages are in average cheaper, raw materials are prices usually in dollars.

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Internal prices in Russia and China are a lot cheaper than in Europe and North America. I visited China twice and the biggest Chinese secret is an internal socialistic economy that exports at capitalistic prices... Chinese PPP is similar to Italy one according some sources.

Cheers

Pepe

peperez said:

Falo...



They offer us a development participation, but we are compromised to F-X2 finalists and we didn't discussed the proposal.



Internal prices in Russia and China are a lot cheaper than in Europe and North America. I visited China twice and the biggest Chinese secret is an internal socialistic economy that exports at capitalistic prices... Chinese PPP is similar to Italy one according some sources.

Cheers

Pepe

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Nice to meet you peperez, i understand portuguese, simply because i am Mexican and speak spanish as my first language.

Well to be honest in GDP China is not an equal of Italy in per capita, niether its economy is fully developed to say they have catched up with the western living standards.
In asia the only nations in per capita terms that are equivalent to Europe are Japan and South Korea.

China is more or less like Peru in GDP per capita and almost like 2/3 of the US economy in GDP and macro economic terms.

So China is a very complex economy combining the technological power of a developed nation like Japan or Germany but with a population with an average PPP GDP like a developing nation.
Of course some cities in China are as impressive as Tokyo or London, but average Chinese citizen still can be considered in the same terms of a developing nation.

The chinese middle class might be as large as the whole population of Russia or even Brazil, but china has hundreds of millions still not better than nations like Cuba in HDI, so China is a very complex nation, but definitively still is a developing nation socially but technologically is a first rate power.

So the J-20 is not cheaper in terms of the social costs, the J-7 is definitively vastly much cheaper than equivalent MiG-21 build by Russia or the JF-17 cheaper than an F-16 in the export market.

If China decides to export the J-20 i agree it will be cheaper than the F-22, but as a product that will only satisfy Chinese needs and only for the PLAAF, then the jet is expensive since Chinese average salaries are much cheaper than western equivalents and the western countries are much wealthier

Did anyone notice the notches on the bottom of the J-20? Are those EODAS systems?

Inst said:

Did anyone notice the notches on the bottom of the J-20? Are those EODAS systems?

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The placement wouldn't make much sense... You don't need three windows to cover each side.

Quickie said:

Looks like the big white panels at the main wheels are no longer there.

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Saw the photo on Sina.com a moment before. But rumors said that the 2002 exist when the 2001 first appear; however, we only see recently. When was it produced? The white BIG panels are disappear (closed up or removed whatsoever), that looks more professional. I've been dislike it when I first saw it.

siegecrossbow said:

The bros are together at last:

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Seige, airplanes are female bro, hence I would say sista's, makes it easier for us dude's when we're pleading with them not to kill us.

Air Force Brat said:

Seige, airplanes are female bro, hence I would say sista's, makes it easier for us dude's when we're pleading with them not to kill us.

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Brat，one of many names that the Chinese fans give the J-20, actually is Si Mei, meaning fourth sister, with four standing for 4th gen., and sister for a lovely little sister... ignoring the fact that this little sister is sort of huge.

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Deino said:

I think there are not really gone but maybe now they simply close after landing !??!

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That would be my guess, too. Whatever really happened, it looks a lot more secure and clean now.

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MiG-29 said:

Well to be honest in GDP China is not an equal of Italy in per capita, niether its economy is fully developed to say they have catched up with the western living standards.
In asia the only nations in per capita terms that are equivalent to Europe are Japan and South Korea.

China is more or less like Peru in GDP per capita and almost like 2/3 of the US economy in GDP and macro economic terms.

Of course some cities in China are as impressive as Tokyo or London, but average Chinese citizen still can be considered in the same terms of a developing nation.

The chinese middle class might be as large as the whole population of Russia or even Brazil, but china has hundreds of millions still not better than nations like Cuba in HDI, so China is a very complex nation, but definitively still is a developing nation socially but technologically is a first rate power.

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All these arguments can be summed up in Premier Wen's words (roughly): Whatever little problems China has could be multiplied by 1.3 billion; whatever wealth China has accumulated has to be divided by 1.3 billion.

China absolutely is a DEVELEPING country and unlike someone else, almost all Chinese know and accept that as a fact. Only that China is developing much faster than anyone else so far and on a much larger scale in development. Sustainable or not, is another topic. For the long run, nothing is sustainable, all empires will one day fall. Nobody, no nation, is and will ever be immune to that!

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SteelBird said:

Saw the photo on Sina.com a moment before. But rumors said that the 2002 exist when the 2001 first appear; however, we only see recently. When was it produced? The white BIG panels are disappear (closed up or removed whatsoever), that looks more professional. I've been dislike it when I first saw it.

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Rumors also say that there are at least 6 or 7 J-20's doing all sorts of tests in parallel just to speed up the process, which leads to another rumore that J-20 will be inducted in 2005. And by now we all know that such rumors, good or bad, in China tend to turn out to be the truth.

Let's just wait and see.

P.S. Whoops! 2005 would suggest that China's got time machines... I meant 2115.

MiG-29 said:

voce fala portugues?
hi peperez, i also read that Brazil was offered the T-50 co-production.

Yeah Russian and Chinese planes are cheaper, but the social cost is the same or even higher, an everage PPP per capita GDP of Russia is 3 times lower than the US and China`s is almost 6 times lower, so if you see the social cost a J-20 is as expensive as a F-22.

The difference of course is the export market, but J-20 very likely won`t be exported at least for 15 years like F-22, so the social cost for China is as high as for the US.

J-20 is not cheaper secially if you consider the life standards in the west are higher and only wages are in average cheaper, raw materials are prices usually in dollars.

Click to expand...

Just short 15 years ago, China's GDP per capita was 1/50 of the United States & had very few private cars. So, what is the point? Now, China is outsold the United States by 5 million cars a year. Oh, you will say per capita, right? Well, the United States, 300 million people consume about 900 million tons of oil annually. If China consumes the same per capita as the US, China needs 4 billion tons of oil. We have to send you Mig-29 to stone age because there would be no oil for you to fly. Why China needs to export J-20? They still don't have any ideas how to spend 3 trillion plus dollars in cash. Because of China is buying, it made the worthless rocks in Austrialia like gold.

Compared to the social cost of the wall street bonuses (and bailouts), lobbying and campaigning. Cost of F22 is nothing. In 2011, the US government collected $2.3 trillion dollars and spent $3.6 trillion. That's how many F-22s?
Compared to the social cost of of corruption in China, cost of J-20 is nothing. In 2011, Chinese central government collected 10.37 trillion yuan ($1.64 trillion) in revenue and spent 10.89 trillion yuan ($1.72 trillion) That's how many J-20s?