J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Blitzo · Mar 5, 2012

MiG-29 said:
simple it says why China needs Su-35 with supercruise ability and TVC nozzles and advanced radars if the J-20 is supposedly to have better engines WS-15 and it is ready to fly in 2018 in operational service.
And it gives a hint why Russia would not sell it since it might be just a way of getting the 117 and improve the WS-15

Yeah... I think we've seen enough evidence that China doesn't need that kind of foreign help with radar tech.
Are you saying that China wants to import Su-35 to garner a few subsystems like TVC nozzles and a supercruise capable engine?
Buying, REing and applying what was learnt from REing onto WS-15 would probably take longer than simply going it out on WS-15 alone, and probably won't deliver a much better product in the end anyway.

Buying Su-35 is a stupid idea, whether it's for the subsystems or the entire plane. Avionics wise the PLAAF will have comparable or superior equipped planes coming into service within a year or two (J-10B, J-11B with AESA etc), engine wise, we've heard of no bottlenecks prohibiting wS-15 development. The challenge will be keeping good production rate and quality, not design or development.
Most of us can see it's likely just russian media misreporting on these matters like they have in the past.

As for TVC, the insinuation again that the chinese are having such massive problems with its development that they need to import a foreign example to study, RE and apply to their own product is ridiculous. Even if they were working on TVC engine (there's debate over whether J-20 needs it as seen above), and had issues, buying one to RE is one of the last and weirdest choices to take to remedy it.

MiG-29 · Mar 5, 2012

Bltizo said:
Yeah... I think we've seen enough evidence that China doesn't need that kind of foreign help with radar tech.
Are you saying that China wants to import Su-35 to garner a few subsystems like TVC nozzles and a supercruise capable engine?
Buying, REing and applying what was learnt from REing onto WS-15 would probably take longer than simply going it out on WS-15 alone, and probably won't deliver a much better product in the end anyway.

Buying Su-35 is a stupid idea, whether it's for the subsystems or the entire plane. Avionics wise the PLAAF will have comparable or superior equipped planes coming into service within a year or two (J-10B, J-11B with AESA etc), engine wise, we've heard of no bottlenecks prohibiting wS-15 development. The challenge will be keeping good production rate and quality, not design or development.
Most of us can see it's likely just russian media misreporting on these matters like they have in the past.

As for TVC, the insinuation again that the chinese are having such massive problems with its development that they need to import a foreign example to study, RE and apply to their own product is ridiculous. Even if they were working on TVC engine (there's debate over whether J-20 needs it as seen above), and had issues, buying one to RE is one of the last and weirdest choices to take to remedy it.

Look first take it easy, what J-20 will have is not up to internet forums, the jet if it needs TVC nozzles, it will be decided by Chengdu, not by any internet chit chat debate, if the Su-35 has been requested well at least the Russian side affirms it, if it does not well soon a statement will be released or simply the sale never is going to happen.

The article is just saying what are the possible reasons China wants Su-35 and in what ways it might be related to the J-20 program, up to what level it might influence the WS-15.

Only that you do not need to get angry at it, if it is true China requested Su-35s and S-400s there must be a reason why? specially since there are very ambitious programs like J-10B or J-20.

Blitzo · Mar 5, 2012

MiG-29 said:
Look first take it easy, what J-20 will have is not up to internet forums, the jet if it needs TVC nozzles, it will be decided by Chengdu, not by any internet chit chat debate, if the Su-35 has been requested well at least the Russian side affirms it, if it does not well soon a statement will be released or simply the sale never is going to happen.

Well we've seen previous cases where the Russians have reported something and the chinese side goes "lol what? no we didn't".

And I sincerely doubt the Su-35 has been requested, whether for its subsystems or for the plane itself, it would be a rather stupid decision to take.

The article is just saying what are the possible reasons China wants Su-35 and in what ways it might be related to the J-20 program, up to what level it might influence the WS-15.

I think you were the one talking about how it could influence J-20 and WS-15, the article only mentioned how the engines and radar could supposedly benefit the chinese industry overall (which is not much). Most of the piece was on about why the chinese might want the plane and why the russians might be reluctant to sell it, both points of which are nonsensical anyway.

Only that you do not need to get angry at it, if it is true China requested Su-35s and S-400s there must be a reason why? specially since there are very ambitious programs like J-10B or J-20.

I'm not angry lol, I'm incredulous.

Trying to link a dubious claim that the PLAAF requested Su-35 to supposed bottlenecks in J-20... Mig 29, really?

MiG-29 · Mar 5, 2012

Bltizo said:
Well we've seen previous cases where the Russians have reported something and the chinese side goes "lol what? no we didn't".

And I sincerely doubt the Su-35 has been requested, whether for its subsystems or for the plane itself, it would be a rather stupid decision to take.

I think you were the one talking about how it could influence J-20 and WS-15, the article only mentioned how the engines and radar could supposedly benefit the chinese industry overall (which is not much). Most of the piece was on about why the chinese might want the plane and why the russians might be reluctant to sell it, both points of which are nonsensical anyway.

I'm not angry lol, I'm incredulous.

Trying to link a dubious claim that the PLAAF requested Su-35 to supposed bottlenecks in J-20... Mig 29, really?

Take it easy, Blitzo

I do not think any of us knows what is the state of WS-15, at least me i do not know, but by the videos released recently up to February 2012, i see no evidence of J-20 having TVC nozzles.

I know J-20 will gain a lot with TVC nozzles in terms of supercruise and stealth, if the Chinese decide it does not need them, well maybe it will be more like F-35 rather than F-22, yeah maybe in that way a 2018 date might be achievable.

However if it will use TVC nozzles, well the Russians claim the Chinese want Su-35 but this rises the question why if the WS-15 is around the corner?
Only time will tell if WS-15 is deployed on 2018 and if Su-35 is ever sold to China.

Any way let leave here and agree to disagree, i know you are highly optimistic about the progress of J-20, which is fine with me, but in my case i just extrapolate past experiences of other aircraft programs.

Let us leave it here.

Regards

Blitzo · Mar 5, 2012

MiG-29 said:
Take it easy, Blitzo

I do not think any of us knows what is the state of WS-15, at least me i do not know, but by the videos released recently up to February 2012, i see no evidence of J-20 having TVC nozzles.

I'm not using caps lock or anything, easy is already being taken. Well as much as when you're going up against an illogical argument...

No one's saying the current J-20 is equipped with TVC or WS-15, no one knows the status of WS-15 but last updates were that development is going smoothly.

I know J-20 will gain a lot with TVC nozzles in terms of supercruise and stealth, if the Chinese decide it does not need them, well maybe it will be more like F-35 rather than F-22, yeah maybe in that way a 2018 date might be achievable.

Actually from what we've heard, the goal was to have supermaneuverability without TVC.

However if it will use TVC nozzles, well the Russians claim the Chinese want Su-35 but this rises the question why if the WS-15 is around the corner?

Because the russian media claim is BS as per examples in previous years?
You're making it sound like it would make sense to buy the Su-35 even if WS-15 was having problems (which it doesn't). Spoiler alert, it makes no sense.

Only time will tell if WS-15 is deployed on 2018 and if Su-35 is ever sold to China.

Any way let leave here and agree to disagree, i know you are highly optimistic about the progress of J-20, which is fine with me, but in my case i just extrapolate past experiences of other aircraft programs.

Words chosen wisely, but the presumption is that we're supposed to take reports that the PLA are interested in Su-35 seriously, which almost nobody is. I'll say it again, the PLA are almost certainly not interested in Su-35, and trying to link it to J-20 development doesn't make sense.
As for the progress of J-20, whatever, believe what you want.

Let us leave it here.

Regards

For now, I'm sure >_>

kyanges · Mar 5, 2012

EDIT: Nevermind.

AssassinsMace · Mar 5, 2012

I love how questions and conclusions about the J-20 can be made based on non-credible information on nothing that has to do with the J-20. Sounds like a troll trying to spin anything into insulting the J-20. Just look at the previous claim that the J-20 was using T-50 engines. Also a story published by the Russians. Now all of the sudden that's not true just so this new charge can be made. Interesting how there's the charge about not being an insider in Japanese aviation industries yet some think to know everything about the non-transparent Chinese industry. Go back and read all about how Russia would never sell the advanced Su-35 to China because of stealing. Now they're willing when the situation is exactly the same? Now their excuse is the Russians might as well make money before China catches up. Well if China is having so much trouble with key components that it needs to buy new technology to steal, it doesn't sound like China is advancing any further on its own. You can make up a story going either way. Isn't it ironic how they say it'll take China 15 years to fully develop the J-20. The J-20 has been around for over a year and they're already claiming failure. Contradiction is a sign of desperation.

Lion · Mar 5, 2012

Blah blah blah... Years ago also reported of china ordering 50 Su-33 for carrier fleet from credible source. Guess what?

This is a another desperate attempt by Russians to claim China need Su-35 and claim China can't make technology breakthrough. I tell u what , few days or week later. China foreign spokesman will come out and refute this rumour...

escobar · Mar 5, 2012

post deleted

Hyperwarp · Mar 6, 2012

Sooooo......Let me get this straight,

PRC wants to buy Su-35 so they can get access to 117S TVC and supercruise tech? Why bother with such an indirect, complicated, and expensive way? Besides, 117S is by NPO Saturn. CAC in contrast has been working with MMPP Salut (AL-31FN). Even the current J-20 engines are rumored to be a 135kN (or 138kN??) class uprated AL-31F (AL-31FMx?) [I asked flateric several time about the thrust, but he remains tight lipped

]. 117S is not by any means Russia's best engine. The PAK-FA use 147kN class engine.

Why go through all this trouble? PRC should know that the Russians aren't going to sell a few samples. They'll have to purchase at least 24 or so aircraft plus other supplies/spares.

-----

S-400 is a different story. I have no doubt PRC would want to get their hands on it.

J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

kyanges

Junior Member

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General

Lion

Senior Member

escobar

Brigadier

Hyperwarp

Captain