J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

siegecrossbow said:

F-22 has flat TVC nozzles. F-35 has the jagged nozzles. Canards alone are not enough for supermaneuverability.

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And it's not like if you have a plane with canards it will inherently provide "supermaneuverabilty" and if you add on TVC nozzles it will not change the way the plane flies.

I think the fact we've not seen any canard/tvc fighters (apart from MKI, but apparently that aircraft is just a white elephant to some people) is due to circumstance more than that the two aerodynamic features make each other redundant.

siegecrossbow said:

2002 is probably used for static testing.

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yes second one usually for bandage games...

and unfortunately no, he said TVC will appear on 2004

Bltizo said:

And it's not like if you have a plane with canards it will inherently provide "supermaneuverabilty" and if you add on TVC nozzles it will not change the way the plane flies.

I think the fact we've not seen any canard/tvc fighters (apart from MKI, but apparently that aircraft is just a white elephant to some people) is due to circumstance more than that the two aerodynamic features make each other redundant.

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exactly, if you can achieve the numbers by one device, why bother add another

starikki said:

exactly, if you can achieve the numbers by one device, why bother add another

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Of course the challenge is whether you can achieve said numbers with one of them.

so the argument out there is that there's no need of a tvc+canard combo because it's redundant? seems like our insiders are quite "confident" with their news, even saying 2004 will have tvc. with that said, i guess ws-15 is nearing completion, or close enough that they know it's ready to be fitted on the j-20?

and with that said, does that mean it's possible we may see a j-20 without canards +tvc, and one with both?

airsuperiority said:

so the argument out there is that there's no need of a tvc+canard combo because it's redundant?

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Well that's the argument but I think it's a flawed one. an aircraft with either canards or tvc will obviously not fly the same with canard+tvc, especially if your aircraft was designed from the outset with canards and you want to improve its performance and/or without tvc the aircraft cannot meet the necessary requirements.

seems like our insiders are quite "confident" with their news, even saying 2004 will have tvc. with that said, i guess ws-15 is nearing completion, or close enough that they know it's ready to be fitted on the j-20?

and with that said, does that mean it's possible we may see a j-20 without canards +tvc, and one with both?

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Nono I don't know where this talk of J-20 not having tvc came from -- I don't think there's been any talk of J-20 without tvc (in production models).
If 2004 will feature TVC then I expect that to be the aircraft which flies with WS-15 as well. Unless the current WS-1X has a nozzle under development for it and WS-15 gets massively delayed...

Bltizo said:

Well that's the argument but I think it's a flawed one. an aircraft with either canards or tvc will obviously not fly the same with canard+tvc, especially if your aircraft was designed from the outset with canards and you want to improve its performance and/or without tvc the aircraft cannot meet the necessary requirements.


Nono I don't know where this talk of J-20 not having tvc came from -- I don't think there's been any talk of J-20 without tvc (in production models).
If 2004 will feature TVC then I expect that to be the aircraft which flies with WS-15 as well. Unless the current WS-1X has a nozzle under development for it and WS-15 gets massively delayed...

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sounds less likely the WS-15 will get delayed, and i dont hope it is..unless WS-15 will roll out with something that the world has never seen before.. but i'd think that's a bit of a stretch to call for since china is still catching up

Bltizo said:

Well that's the argument but I think it's a flawed one. an aircraft with either canards or tvc will obviously not fly the same with canard+tvc, especially if your aircraft was designed from the outset with canards and you want to improve its performance and/or without tvc the aircraft cannot meet the necessary requirements.

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That's just my point isn't it? As for J-20, the maneuverability goals are probably very high.

Main gains of TVC are higher agility; better trim/ trim drag; Better high AOA/ post stall control right?
Somehow I think J-20's configuration can handle the first two aspect pretty well, and personally I don't see why high AOA/ post stall maneuverability is that important in combat situation. Indeed Very good for air show though

Also TVC has a lot of downside too, weight/complexity/FCS etc.
I remember reading something about MKI's TVC, bad coupling with FCS/conventional control surfaces actually make things much worse.
However I believe CAC can handle FCS very nicely.

starikki said:

That's just my point isn't it? As for J-20, the maneuverability goals are probably very high.

Main gains of TVC are higher agility; better trim/ trim drag; Better high AOA/ post stall control right?
Somehow I think J-20's configuration can handle the first two aspect pretty well, and personally I don't see why high AOA/ post stall maneuverability is that important in combat situation. Indeed Very good for air show though

Also TVC has a lot of downside too, weight/complexity/FCS etc.
I remember reading something about MKI's TVC, bad coupling with FCS/conventional control surfaces actually make things much worse.
However I believe CAC can handle FCS very nicely.

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Precisely my point.. I dont know what is the obssess with TVC? Just because F-22 and T-50 have TVC so J-20 must follow? No TVC, means no super agility?

You must remember F-22 and T-50 are conventional design while J-20 is advance canard position.

J-10 and Typhoon and Rafale has already demonstrated high speed agility of canard design in absent of TVC.
In fact, I believe adding this 2 together will make each other redunbant by adding up complexity, weight and thrust.

I believe thrust and reliability will still be priority. Final J-20 will canard and a redesign nozzle but no TVC.

Just FYI

Google Translation

Morning News Russian MiG aircraft production and design of the Commonwealth Fedorova, spokesman to the official Russian news agency on Friday said both past and present, Russia does not sell any parts to China and technology to help China develop the F - 20 fifth-generation fighter, the future will not do.
Earlier, some Russian media reports, China's use of F -20 MiG Russian fifth generation fighter technology and parts -1.44, and -1.44 F -20 with the shape similar to the MiG.

Fedorova emphasized that her company has not signed with China in the development of fifth generation fighter to any agreement, Russia not to provide any MiG -1.44 Chinese technology and components. MiG -1.44 started developing in the former Soviet Union, is designed to counter the U.S. F-22 fighters. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the development of the MiG was -1.44 bogged down because of lack of funding. But as the Russian financial situation improved, developed MiG -1.44 resume again, and in 2000 the first launch test. But the Russian Defense Ministry that the MiG -1.44 development cycle is too long, the use of related technology has become obsolete, so give up the MiG -1.44 in favor of the development of the Sukhoi T-50 type fifth-generation fighter.