J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Blitzo

Blitzo

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True, a couple of CJ-10s would be wiser instead of risking a J-20.

On a different note, the size of the J-20 also gives for the first time in chinese aviation history, a large indigenous fighter platform which they can convert into numerous roles like what the US has done with the F-15/F-111/F-18 and the Russians with their flanker. Despite what people said about the PLAAF only getting ~300 J-20s, I think it is possible they will procure further variants such as EW, recon and theatre bomber (think FB-22). With its sheer size, stealth and (what we assume to be) high kinematic performance we should expect further variants of this plane appearing in the mid 20s.
 
MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Bltizo said:
True, a couple of CJ-10s would be wiser instead of risking a J-20.

On a different note, the size of the J-20 also gives for the first time in chinese aviation history, a large indigenous fighter platform which they can convert into numerous roles like what the US has done with the F-15/F-111/F-18 and the Russians with their flanker. Despite what people said about the PLAAF only getting ~300 J-20s, I think it is possible they will procure further variants such as EW, recon and theatre bomber (think FB-22). With its sheer size, stealth and (what we assume to be) high kinematic performance we should expect further variants of this plane appearing in the mid 20s.
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The future of "J-20" derivatives and roles would depend on how big that main ordinance bay going to be in the production model, as well as Chinese progress in terms of PGMs...AAMs have sort of reach an apex in terms of practical physical size, which leaves to trim the fins to fit inside the ordinance bay; PGMs would have to be seen if the Chinese have make SDMs beyond proposal and into practical units to be adpoted by the PLAAF / PLAN aviation, though 2000lb JDAM type still have its place in all things.

But in the end, except when precision is the "alpha & omega" against highly defended targets, current generation of cruise missiles can do that at fraction of cost and far less risk, better bang for the buck.

As for EW...whoa, a stealth aircraft as EW? Isn't that self-contradiction? Such role would better be fitted by JH-7 or J-11B, rather than make a supposedly "silent" J-20 become a rattling bell, eh?
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
EW is a lot more complex than just active jamming. A huge part of EW is signals collection so it can be properly analyzed to allow for more precise and effective jamming when it comes to that.

A stealth plane could snoop a lot better than a conventional EW aircraft as it can go in without having to turn on its own jammers and so get a clearer copy of enemy emissions without risking being shot down by SAMs.

Although I personally doubt they will make too many versions. For one the basic model will probably be very expensive, so other versions may become cost prohibitive.

In addition, with improvements in UAV/UCAV technologies as well as the possibility that China might develop a smaller, medium weight stealth fighter, it is entirely possible that they will fulfill many of the roles J20 variants would perform more effectively at a fraction of the purchase and operating costs.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
plawolf said:
Aren't they basically the same thing? You design the plane to meet a desired range requirement. How thirsty the engines are is a factor that influences how big the plane is.

OTOH, if they only cared above the plane's physical size with range as a secondary issue, they would have just made the plane the size you wanted and settled for reduced range.
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What I meant to say was if the specific fuel consumption was high that might imply a reduced range for the given fuel capacity, and therefore if the size of the plane was for fuel, it might not be for the purpose of achieving greater range than its contemporaries as it is meant to overcome high specific fuel consumption.

plawolf said:
Fair points, and as I have already pointed out a few months back, I can see the J20 being used, and making a huge difference in the SEAD/DEAD role with an anti-radiation version of the PL12 (which isn't at all far fetched when you consider that the PL12 as it is already have a passive homing mode).

However, I cannot see the J20 being used as a first day striker aircraft. Too risky, and the J20 has other jobs to do on the first day that would be far better suited to its strengths.

If something needs to be hit on the first day, you hit it with a cruise missile. If it is really critical said target is taken out, you send 10 cruise missiles.

There is no sense in risking a potentially $100m plane just to save a few hundred $k using glide bombs instead of cruise missiles.
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Cruise missiles and a barrage of missiles from those old interceptors.
 
S

Speeder

Junior Member
Some say that J-20 is not that long - about 21m, shorter than Su-27.

If that were the case, what would be its advantage/s vis-a-vis F-22 for instance (esp from designers pov) ?

J-20 would then slower, perhaps less stealthy, same/or less fighting radius, same/ or less ammo, same/or less maneuverble... again, what is its advantage ?
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Speeder said:
Some say that J-20 is not that long - about 21m, shorter than Su-27.

If that were the case, what would be its advantage/s vis-a-vis F-22 for instance (esp from designers pov) ?

J-20 would then slower, perhaps less stealthy, same/or less fighting radius, same/ or less ammo, same/or less maneuverble... again, what is its advantage ?
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It's probably more like 20 meters actually.

To put things in simple general terms:

Length gives you a longer momentum arm so it's easier to turn your nose (there are trade offs though like higher drag).

Top speed is determined by aerodynamic design, particularly the amount of drag that design incurs, and the specific thrust of the engine.

Acceleration is determined by thrust to weight ratio.

Range is determined by a whole slew of factors, including specific fuel consumption, the amount of fuel the plane is carrying, the velocity of the plane given a specific fuel consumption, lift, drag, etc etc. It's probably the most variable out of the bunch, especially since none of these factors stay constant but change over time (I would hate to see what the mathematical integration to find maximum range would look like).

What's this tell you? It tells you that we don't know anything about this plane that is concrete, and length functionally tells you nothing about this plane's performance, except that because it's longer it might be heavier (or it might not because of material and composition), or it might have an easier time turning its nose (or it might not because of drag), or it might have a greater volume (or it might not because of other dimensional factors) ie more space for fuel and stuff (or it might not because there are more structural components in the J-20).
 
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S

Speeder

Junior Member
I think that there're just too many assumptions on J-20 out there. That's a risky business for if one of primary assumptions (e.g. length, ammo/fuel size etc) is wrong which is highly likely, then the whole assummed scenario becomes wrong or infeasible.

Why not work in reverse by asking what is there that is for certain which just can not be wrong no matter what furhter assumption/s one makes?

The nose.

What I see the whole point of J-20 is its nose: huge AND well-shaped!

If one took out its nose and fit it with J-10s , J-20 would become a J-10 senior by and large.

IMO, therefore, the designer's primary target for J-20 role is crysal clear without any (our) unneccesary assumptions. That is what i dub as "J-20 Triology".

1 . Go to the opponent undetected ( as a huge nose= best possible radar);
2. do whatever "job" it needs to do;
3. bug off.

If above is agreed, then J-20 can be whatever depending on further details ( all are assumption so far).

1. it could be an interceptor: go undetected - intercept - off

2. it could be bomber/striker: go undetected - drop the load - off

Bearing in mind China's speciality - "asymmetrical warfare", I don't think it's designed for against F-22 or F-35 per se because it's a bit, prehaps, far-fetched and more importantly it is unneccesary. Destroying tankers, AWAC etc is enough to defeat F-22 just like taking out satellites is enough to deter the precision -guilded weapons on the ground.

So in the end, it can be anything, IMO, which by definition makes it a Multirole fighter just like J-10 but with 5th gen characters.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Speeder said:
I think that there're just too many assumptions on J-20 out there. That's a risky business for if one of primary assumptions (e.g. length, ammo/fuel size etc) is wrong which is highly likely, then the whole assummed scenario becomes wrong or infeasible.

Why not work in reverse by asking what is there that is for certain which just can not be wrong no matter what furhter assumption/s one makes?

The nose.

What I see the whole point of J-20 is its nose: huge AND well-shaped!

If one took out its nose and fit it with J-10s , J-20 would become a J-10 senior by and large.

IMO, therefore, the designer's primary target for J-20 role is crysal clear without any (our) unneccesary assumptions. That is what i dub as "J-20 Triology".

1 . Go to the opponent undetected ( as a huge nose= best possible radar);
2. do whatever "job" it needs to do;
3. bug off.

If above is agreed, then J-20 can be whatever depending on further details ( all are assumption so far).

1. it could be an interceptor: go undetected - intercept - off

2. it could be bomber/striker: go undetected - drop the load - off

Bearing in mind China's speciality - "asymmetrical warfare", I don't think it's designed for against F-22 or F-35 per se because it's a bit, prehaps, far-fetched and more importantly it is unneccesary. Destroying tankers, AWAC etc is enough to defeat F-22 just like taking out satellites is enough to deter the precision -guilded weapons on the ground.

So in the end, it can be anything, IMO, which by definition makes it a Multirole fighter just like J-10 but with 5th gen characters.
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I forgot to mention two things. We do know that a longer fuselage tends to have have less drag and more efficient supersonic cruise. That is somewhat indicative of what advantages the J-20 could be meant to exploit, but again there are other factors involved that could have an effect on that assessment.
 
S

Speeder

Junior Member
latenlazy said:
It's probably more like 20 meters actually.

To put things in simple general terms:

Length ..

Top speed...

Acceleration ...

Range ...

What's this tell you? ...
Click to expand...

LOL, that tells me that I need to go out, have a glass of Rosé before treat my fuselage with dinner.

TX for the info btw!
 
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