J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

no_name said:

It looks like they are taking a panel down from the plane belly (weapon bay door or placeholder?)

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Woah woah woah! Is that the side weapon bay door open?!! If it is, that's the first time we see it open! It certainly doesn't look like the landing gear door; too long.

So all this time the weapon bay doors are operational, its just seal so well we can't even see the outline. Amazing!

Martian said:

First time: China J-20 Mighty Dragon with contrails!

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So, it is officially called "Mighty Dragon" now? Is that really the official designation?

Asymptote said:

Woah woah woah! Is that the side weapon bay door open?!! If it is, that's the first time we see it open! It certainly doesn't look like the landing gear door; too long.

So all this time the weapon bay doors are operational, its just seal so well we can't even see the outline. Amazing!

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More like the local weather condition and limitation to the camera made it nigh impossible to register such details until they actually open the bay doors...you can't ask much with just cellphone lens or non-professional camera.

So, it is officially called "Mighty Dragon" now? Is that really the official designation?

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Not likely official same goes with the designation J-20, remember officially they still haven't acknowledge publicly the existence of it in the first place?

For me the recent photos details of the J-20 shows that PLA is rapidly advancing in advance equipment design and the manufacturing process is catching up the rest of the world in neck breaking speed. All they need now is to show that their can indeed build a world class 4 gen jet engine, and commission the Varyag for sea trail within the year, that will send shock wave around the world IMO.

Mashan said:

For me the recent photos details of the J-20 shows that PLA is rapidly advancing in advance equipment design and the manufacturing process is catching up the rest of the world in neck breaking speed. All they need now is to show that their can indeed build a world class 4 gen jet engine, and commission the Varyag for sea trail within the year, that will send shock wave around the world IMO.

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I still think it *may* be just for the look....
China is still lagging pretty far behind to the industrialized world in so many aspects. The J-20 shows they know how to make airframe to "look stealthy" now, we still don't know exactly how stealthy it is, or how combat effective is its stealth (Does it get wash off?! there are many posters here who seems to think the stealth RAM paint get wash off F-22 easily...if the high tech F-22 can get their RAM Paint wash off so easily, what chance does China have to make water resistant RAM paint??). With China's industrial prowess, I think the manufacturing are still largely by hand (QBZ-95's designer complained that he had to account for the manual production method that plagued the accuracy of QBZ-95 - of course, this is a conjuncture).

I will quote from a very well sourced analysis (if you are reading this, THANKS quellish !)



"...........At the higher bands, small things matter. In "Skunk Works", Ben Rich told a story of a HAVE BLUE (F-117 prototype) test flight that was ruined by a loose access screw. The screw was not tightened completely flush with the aircraft surface and produced a bright radar return during the test. Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths, making small imperfections like Rich's screw appear visible when to a low frequency radar they would not be. Modern fighter radars use these high frequencies, as do a number of SAM/AAA systems. For example, the US APG-66 radar from the F-16 operates in the "I" band, which has a wavelength between 1 and 1.5 inches. US stealth aircraft (such as the F-22) tend to optimize for these frequencies because many adversary radars use them. To do so requires a level of attention to detail in design, construction, and operation that historically the US and Western nations have excelled at. Very precise manufacturing and quality control is required throughout the lifetime of the system, especially when it comes to the fabrication and application of absorbing coatings."

"In contrast, the J-20 is very different at these frequencies. Even a cursory examination of the available photographs reveals major surface disruptions that would appear very bright to a modern high frequency radar. Access panels, cavities, and vents are visible which could not be eliminated or controlled without significant design changes. It is entirely possible that the PLA knows that the level of quality control necessary for a significant signature reduction in the higher frequencies used by modern air to air radars is out of their reach, and designed around that."

".....Clearly, though, there are some attempts made at signature reduction. There are features on the lower half of the aircraft that appear intended to reduce the radar signature of the vehicle. Some access panels and doors have serrated edges to scatter edge returns and eddy currents. Landing gear and weapons bay doors may have hydraulic assists to ensure a very tight seal. Many of the surface disruptions seen on the upper half of the aircraft are not present on the underside.

"The sizing of some of these features matters. With even an imprecise measure of the size of some of these features it is clear that they were intended to mask the aircraft from lower frequency radars, and from a narrow range of aspect angles."

"......Clearly the J-20 is not optimized for a reduced signature in the high frequency bands. Lower frequency radars have a longer wavelength. For example, the "F" band radar of the AN/SPY-1D used on the AEGIS system has a wavelength between 3 and 4 inches. That may not sound like much, but when you are building an aircraft it can be a lot. Curiously, there are very few disruptions on the underside of the J-20 that are larger than about 4 inches. Features that might appear "bright" to radars in the C,E, and F bands appear to have been treated to signature reduction measures. If the J-20 were approaching an F-band radar head on from 30,000 feet or more, the radar might see only a very tailored reflection looking back."



Again, I am not a hater, please don't label me as such. I am just trying inject realism to this discussion. I have never intend to bash China.

Asymptote said:

I still think it *may* be just for the look....
China is still lagging pretty far behind to the industrialized world in so many aspects. The J-20 shows they know how to make airframe to "look stealthy" now, we still don't know exactly how stealthy it is, or how combat effective is its stealth (Does it get wash off?! there are many posters here who seems to think the stealth RAM paint get wash off F-22 easily...if the high tech F-22 can get their RAM Paint wash off so easily, what chance does China have to make water resistant RAM paint??). With China's industrial prowess, I think the manufacturing are still largely by hand - (QBZ-95's designer complained that he had to account for the manual production method that plagued the accuracy of QBZ-95 - of course, this is a conjuncture).

I will quote from a very well sourced analysis (if you are reading this, THANKS quellish !)



"...........At the higher bands, small things matter. In "Skunk Works", Ben Rich told a story of a HAVE BLUE (F-117 prototype) test flight that was ruined by a loose access screw. The screw was not tightened completely flush with the aircraft surface and produced a bright radar return during the test. Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths, making small imperfections like Rich's screw appear visible when to a low frequency radar they would not be. Modern fighter radars use these high frequencies, as do a number of SAM/AAA systems. For example, the US APG-66 radar from the F-16 operates in the "I" band, which has a wavelength between 1 and 1.5 inches. US stealth aircraft (such as the F-22) tend to optimize for these frequencies because many adversary radars use them. To do so requires a level of attention to detail in design, construction, and operation that historically the US and Western nations have excelled at. Very precise manufacturing and quality control is required throughout the lifetime of the system, especially when it comes to the fabrication and application of absorbing coatings."

"In contrast, the J-20 is very different at these frequencies. Even a cursory examination of the available photographs reveals major surface disruptions that would appear very bright to a modern high frequency radar. Access panels, cavities, and vents are visible which could not be eliminated or controlled without significant design changes. It is entirely possible that the PLA knows that the level of quality control necessary for a significant signature reduction in the higher frequencies used by modern air to air radars is out of their reach, and designed around that."

".....Clearly, though, there are some attempts made at signature reduction. There are features on the lower half of the aircraft that appear intended to reduce the radar signature of the vehicle. Some access panels and doors have serrated edges to scatter edge returns and eddy currents. Landing gear and weapons bay doors may have hydraulic assists to ensure a very tight seal. Many of the surface disruptions seen on the upper half of the aircraft are not present on the underside.

"The sizing of some of these features matters. With even an imprecise measure of the size of some of these features it is clear that they were intended to mask the aircraft from lower frequency radars, and from a narrow range of aspect angles."

"......Clearly the J-20 is not optimized for a reduced signature in the high frequency bands. Lower frequency radars have a longer wavelength. For example, the "F" band radar of the AN/SPY-1D used on the AEGIS system has a wavelength between 3 and 4 inches. That may not sound like much, but when you are building an aircraft it can be a lot. Curiously, there are very few disruptions on the underside of the J-20 that are larger than about 4 inches. Features that might appear "bright" to radars in the C,E, and F bands appear to have been treated to signature reduction measures. If the J-20 were approaching an F-band radar head on from 30,000 feet or more, the radar might see only a very tailored reflection looking back."



Again, I am not a hater, please don't label me as such. I am just trying inject realism to this discussion. I have never intend to bash China.

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Ahh, Quellish's post on secretprojects. The only problem I have with his analysis is that he makes the claim that the J-20 has small details on its surface which hurt its stealth against higher band radars, but he doesn't back that claim with specifics, which poses a big problem in this case because all the pictures we've seen of the J-20 show that it has a very smooth flush surface.

Asymptote said:

Again, I am not a hater, please don't label me as such. I am just trying inject realism to this discussion. I have never intend to bash China.

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I think you have it reversed. This discussion injects realism to you, and to the article that you quoted.

Engineer said:

I think you have it reversed. This discussion injects realism to you, and to the article that you quoted.

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So true.

BTW I already trashed Quellish's post through simply bringing up that the J20 is very smooth. You can't even see the weapons bay unless it is opened.

Which makes His argument completely baseless.

Asymptote said:

I still think it *may* be just for the look....
China is still lagging pretty far behind to the industrialized world in so many aspects. The J-20 shows they know how to make airframe to "look stealthy" now, we still don't know exactly how stealthy it is, or how combat effective is its stealth (Does it get wash off?! there are many posters here who seems to think the stealth RAM paint get wash off F-22 easily...if the high tech F-22 can get their RAM Paint wash off so easily, what chance does China have to make water resistant RAM paint??). With China's industrial prowess, I think the manufacturing are still largely by hand (QBZ-95's designer complained that he had to account for the manual production method that plagued the accuracy of QBZ-95 - of course, this is a conjuncture).

Again, I am not a hater, please don't label me as such. I am just trying inject realism to this discussion. I have never intend to bash China.

Click to expand...

Even if you're a not a hater, you're simply showing your denial or disbelief that PRC can surpass USA. That's your whole argument all along. "If US can't, then China can't" And for that, maybe you should open your eyes to ASBM, which is first created by PRC.

In addition, it doesn't seemed to have occurred to you that F-22 and J-20 can be using different stealth technology and stealth composition.

With all due respect, don't bullshit with us here with your ignorance of how "it's all only for looks". Unless you can back it up and gain solid information that demonstrates the J-20 is all for looks, don't give us anymore of your stupid crap. None of us here are interested in hearing how you think it's all for looks just because you think so, and in fact we're very sick of it. It really seems like you learned nothing from that 3-day ban.

Indeed what you're doing is not China bashing, but still considered a type of ignorance.

BSing about what you think with no proof isn't discussion, so stop degrading the high quality of this forum and the minds participating in it.

latenlazy said:

Ahh, Quellish's post on secretprojects. The only problem I have with his analysis is that he makes the claim that the J-20 has small details on its surface which hurt its stealth against higher band radars, but he doesn't back that claim with specifics, which poses a big problem in this case because all the pictures we've seen of the J-20 show that it has a very smooth flush surface.

Click to expand...

He did.

".......Even a cursory examination of the available photographs reveals major surface disruptions that would appear very bright to a modern high frequency radar. Access panels, cavities, and vents are visible which could not be eliminated or controlled without significant design changes."

"The sizing of some of these features matters. With even an imprecise measure of the size of some of these features it is clear that they were intended to mask the aircraft from lower frequency radars, and from a narrow range of aspect angles."


What he meant isn't just about how smooth it is, but the sizing of these features. It has to do with radar frequency irradiation of these features.

There are also many other major disruption on surface even from frontal angle that we can see from the comparison shot below.



A large frontal reflecting surface at the inlet, the bump along the edge of canard gap,
change of alignment angle along the gap, round LERX (Leading edge root extensions), gaps on the leading edge slats, and uneven surface along the body (see the alignment line).

I would assume those little spikes (I counted 5) that sticks out around the nose will be removed from the production line model. If not, those are major disruption too.

airsuperiority said:

Even if you're a not a hater, you're simply showing your denial or disbelief that PRC can surpass USA. That's your whole argument all along. "If US can't, then China can't" And for that, maybe you should open your eyes to ASBM, which is first created by PRC.

In addition, it doesn't seemed to have occurred to you that F-22 and J-20 can be using different stealth technology and stealth composition.

With all due respect, don't bullshit with us here with your ignorance of how "it's all only for looks". Unless you can back it up and gain solid information that demonstrates the J-20 is all for looks, don't give us anymore of your stupid crap. None of us here are interested in hearing how you think it's all for looks just because you think so, and in fact we're very sick of it. It really seems like you learned nothing from that 3-day ban.

Indeed what you're doing is not China bashing, but still considered a type of ignorance.

BSing about what you think with no proof isn't discussion, so stop degrading the high quality of this forum and the minds participating in it.

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You didn't bring any evidence to your argument about J-20. So, personal bashing aside, you brought nothing to the table besides trying to slander me.

AsBM is not publicly acknowledged, AsBM is not tested, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT ACTUALLY EXISTED. It should be treated as myth until proven otherwise.

Seriously, bring something to the table for discussion. Its infantile to just shout and slander. Also, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am bashing China.