J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

latenlazy said:

Furthermore it implies that the US and China must exist in zero-sum. I don't believe that's a forgone conclusion, and it's best that we try to formulate US-China relations in positive sum as best we can (Ironic that I say this in a defence forum).

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On the contrary, I think this is best place to talk about "US-China relations in positive sum". After all, the ultimate goal of any national defense is peace.

J-20 overhead


First flight of Chengdu J-20 prototype, 11th January, 2011. Note the planform alignment and lower fuselage shaping, optimised for all aspect Very Low Observable performance. The nozzles include serrated joins and nozzle rim (Chinese Internet).

[Source: Air Power Australia at ]

pugachev_diver said:

I wonder if there are any Chinese (ethnic Chinese but American citizens) engineers working on the F119. I mean key personnel, not just low level guys that only knew a few things. It'll be amazing if some of those guys defect back to China. They'll be a great boost to China's aero engine industry. As complex as engines and rockets may sound, it's still just few key things that mark the difference between a powerhouse and the one trying to catch up. Believe it or not, Red China's space, aeronautical, and nuclear industries were mostly set up by American educated Chinese scientists. Without them, China would probably be no better than what India is today.
Although China got a strong foundation, it's just the time is too tight and the gap is widening. The situation does not give China the time to develop like the Americans and the British did in WWII and later during the Cold War. Alternative measures have to be taken in order to catch up quickly.
Without powerful engines similar to the F119, the J20 won't be that effective. Airplanes are just like cars, it's only as good as its engine.

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I seriously doubt that etnic chinese (or other foreign natoinals for that matter) work on sensitive military projects. The DoD wont allow it. There are rules for it.

I dont think the gap is widening. The gap, if anything, is closing. Taking into account that china never produced an turbofan before, its a huge step. I remember people in 1992 asking when china would develop its first turbofan.

I dont think that a fighter jet is as good as its engine. Thats an absurd. What about aerodynamics, materials, stealth, electronics, radar, pilot training, etc, etc ??

How powerful is Ws-10A ?? how powerful is WS-15 ??

Just to interject something, I cannot wait for the parade in 2019. Can you imagine how intimidating seeing Type 99Gs (whatever they are called), J-10Bs, J-15s, J-16s, Y-20s, and J-20s will be flying over Tienanmen square?

Heck, a fleet of J-20s will send chills down my spine enough.

Don't forget why India's HAL Tejas couldn't fly until Americans gave them the engines. Because of this (along with their incompetence, but this being the most significant), the Indian fighter couldn't fruit and the whole thing delayed for like 10-20 years. If it wasn't because of AL-31 engines, J-10 would definitely have to wait a long time, until WS-10 comes to fruition. The same applies to JH-7, J8, and Mitsubishi F2. These were either bad engines or no engines. Don't forget that the PLAAF would rather use retired second hand British SPEY engines for JH7 rather than using their own. What does this indicate?

Centrist said:

Just to interject something, I cannot wait for the parade in 2019. Can you imagine how intimidating seeing Type 99Gs (whatever they are called), J-10Bs, J-15s, J-16s, Y-20s, and J-20s will be flying over Tienanmen square?

Heck, a fleet of J-20s will send chills down my spine enough.

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It's not that intimidating. The Americans reached this level about 20 years ago. J20 is on par with F22, as Type 99 modified is on par with M1A2. The rest can only match what the Americans have achieved in the late 70s.
If China was parading like five 100,000 ton nuclear carriers with 200 B-1B (or Tu-160) class supersonic bombers, I think the world would be intimidated. A few tanks with mostly third generation planes can be threatening, but not intimidating.

pugachev_diver said:

It's not that intimidating. The Americans reached this level about 20 years ago. J20 is on par with F22, as Type 99 modified is on par with M1A2. The rest can only match what the Americans have achieved in the late 70s.
If China was parading like five 100,000 ton nuclear carriers with 200 B-1B (or Tu-160) class supersonic bombers, I think the world would be intimidated. A few tanks with mostly third generation planes can be threatening, but not intimidating.

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The us doesn't even have 100 B-1Bs, and is there any replacement for the M1A2 that will be in service in large numbers by 2019. China does not have to surpass the US, nor even equal it. 50 J-20s flying over Tienanmen square is enough to set off another red scare in the US. We Americans are paranoid, that is a statistical fact.

pugachev_diver said:

Don't forget why India's HAL Tejas couldn't fly until Americans gave them the engines. Because of this (along with their incompetence, but this being the most significant), the Indian fighter couldn't fruit and the whole thing delayed for like 10-20 years. If it wasn't because of AL-31 engines, J-10 would definitely have to wait a long time, until WS-10 comes to fruition. The same applies to JH-7, J8, and Mitsubishi F2. These were either bad engines or no engines. Don't forget that the PLAAF would rather use retired second hand British SPEY engines for JH7 rather than using their own. What does this indicate?

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There is only handful of country that can produce high thrust to weight Turbofan. Because the higher the ignition temperature the more efficient the engine will become. That mean your first stage turbine blade will experience extreme temperature . The only solution is single crystal blade.

China in 1970 has a weak technology base with GDP/capita of $200 a year and has no experience whatsoever with Gas Turbine

The development of Gas Turbine in China was also retarded due to political convulsion in 60 and 70's So China lost almost 3 decade in development time plus you have technology embargo imposed on China until today.

So it is a bit unfair to compare China to US or England. Even US got help from the british during WW II . the Brit transfer the design of W2 Engine to GE and that is how GE got it start in producing Jet Engine

Russia too got help from England with their gift of Nene Engine

No JH7 A is not powered by Spey engine they are powered by Qinling 2 Engine. It was discussed to death in this forum. I believe even the JH 7 is now re engine with Qinglin 2
http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/air-force/jh-7-jh-7a-thread-38-912.html

According to Ta Kung Pao, China began research on the WS-15 Qinling-2 Turbofan in 1998. The Qinling-2 Turbofan is an improvement on the WS-9 turbofan, with increased pre-heating temperatures on the turbines and reduced weight for greater efficiency. Tests on the Qinling-2 Turbofan in October 2008 were successful. It is now technically competitive to the late M53-P2 engine from France.

But we now see the proliferation of J 11 B with WS10A so thing are looking up for Gas Turbine development in China

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Just a thought. J20 was from the beginning seen as a pretty finished product. Its rear part looks like a finished design, the engine nozzles have those serrated edges, whcih could indicate effort was put into making them like that for operational use.

On the other hand, pakfa always had quite unfinished looking engines, all uncovered, without even the slightest effort to lower the rcs. but, at tha same time, info emerged that sukhoi (or engine firm) patented some new nozzles. That makes me think it is quite possible pakfa will get new engines with new nozzles and new underbelly cover which may end up being fairly stealthy.

While on the other hand j20 will be 'stuck' with the existing nozzle design. At least up to some upgrade project in the future.

While J-20s will be getting WS-15 before 2020 (if all goes to plan), which should have its own stealthy nozzle design, initial J-20s will come into service with the current "WS-1X" or upgraded WS-10 engine... which most believe to be the current silver/serrated nozzeled engine powering the prototypes.

But I disagree that J-20 will be "stuck" with the current engine -- at least not past the initial batch or two -- and the serrated nozzles is just better workmanship and attention to detail on CAC and their suppliers part. The engine situation of J-20 and PAK FA are similar -- both prototypes are using upgraded, non 5th generation engines and both are waiting for real 5th generation engines...
A parallel case is that PAK FA will be stuck with its current engines cause it has TVC and indicates a finished product...

Simplest reason for the serration and better looking rear end on J-20 is better attention to detail and workmanship.