J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

I would agree to a point. Saw tooth edging and frameless canopies can be added later. But I don't know that an S-inlet can be put in now....seems too late for that.

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The Russians may be going the route of operational tactic to deal with the exposed engine blade problem, by trying to expose only the stealthier side of the T-50 during a tactical move.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Martian said:

Saw-toothed doors don't matter if the engine compressor blades are exposed and returning a massive radar signature. However, for the J-20 and F-22, the serpentine air-inlets (and DSI on the J-20) hide the engine compressor blades. Once the major factors for RCS have been hidden or dramatically reduced then the little details like saw-toothed doors matter if you want to achieve a RCS of 0.0001 m2.

The Russians are logical. Since the T-50's engine blades are exposed, why bother with extensive saw-toothed doors, frameless cockpit canopy, RAM-coated cockpit glass, removing exposed rivets, removing all those gaps, vents, and protrusions from the underside of the T-50, etc.?

Russian T-50 underside is a messy design. Vents, gaps, stuff jutting out, etc. This is not stealthy.

J-20 has a very clean and smooth underside. Once the wheels are retracted, this is a very smooth, RAM-coated, and stealthy design.

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It's still too early to call when the T-50 and the J-20 are at their respectively early stage, which the airframes will certainly undergo further changes due to the right engine and avionics become available.

Besides, it seems that the Russian and the Chinese ain't exactly aimed for a "F-22 equivalent" - F-22 gonna be small in numbers and the major workhorse for the next decades is the F-35 series, and the current/upcoming 3rd gen fighters, thus it's more than adequate to have something that's dominant against F-35 and the other 3rd gen fighters, and perhaps superior against each other (scenarios for a T-50 vs J-20 is still probable) in different areas of the envelop, as well as current line of ground air defense systems.

Against F-22? Well as long as they can make it work for its money then that's all it matters.

There is a design of light fighter for carrier type, looks very nice!


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Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

That is an interesting theory, but it doesn't jive with the prototype numbers nor does it seem possible that no one saw it until now.

That said, you're right, the J-20 seems like a pretty mature design for a first flight prototype.

On another note: Anyone know how to create a signature on this forum? I cannot find it for the life of me.

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The Chinese military lets you see what they want you to see. If they didn't want us seeing the J-20 then we would have no idea about it. Misinformation is also frequent and convincing.

The J-20 would have already gone through rigorous flight testing before showing it to the public. This is a certainty. Failure in private is okay but failure in public would have been humiliating for the Chinese government. The revealing of the plane was a show of force to the world and any failures would have been unacceptable.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

That is an interesting theory, but it doesn't jive with the prototype numbers nor does it seem possible that no one saw it until now.

That said, you're right, the J-20 seems like a pretty mature design for a first flight prototype.

On another note: Anyone know how to create a signature on this forum? I cannot find it for the life of me.

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We already know that there are at least two 2001's.

How many are there? There are rumors of 4 (including one which were seriously damaged due to a collision with a JJ-7 on the taxiway) but that was just rumor. All we know is that 2001 does not mean it is the first sample of J-20.

Based on eyeballing, J-20 does not have the radar system yet, and it hasn't demoed its weapon abilities. We don't know about its engines either. Other than those, it is pretty close to a final design.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

johnqh said:

We already know that there are at least two 2001's.

How many are there? There are rumors of 4 (including one which were seriously damaged due to a collision with a JJ-7 on the taxiway) but that was just rumor. All we know is that 2001 does not mean it is the first sample of J-20.

Based on eyeballing, J-20 does not have the radar system yet, and it hasn't demoed its weapon abilities. We don't know about its engines either. Other than those, it is pretty close to a final design.

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You may be right. Who knows. It just seems unlikely. The first flight would have had to be an extraordinarily well-kept secret. Not to mention, there must have been a concerted disinformation effort to make us all believe that it was the first flight. The explanation you are looking for could be that most of the subsystems were tested on J-10B first.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

You may be right. Who knows. It just seems unlikely. The first flight would have had to be an extraordinarily well-kept secret. Not to mention, there must have been a concerted disinformation effort to make us all believe that it was the first flight. The explanation you are looking for could be that most of the subsystems were tested on J-10B first.

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Extraordinary well-kept secret?

Did anyone know when J-10 took the first flight? JH-7? J-11B? J-10B?

Even with JF-17, the well-publicized "maiden flight" (with Pakistan visitors) were not the real first flight.

I cannot say when J-20 has the real first flight, and how much testing has already been done. However, I am 100% confident that the silver nozzle J-20 "2001" was not the first flying J-20.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

johnqh said:

Extraordinary well-kept secret?

Did anyone know when J-10 took the first flight? JH-7? J-11B? J-10B?

Even with JF-17, the well-publicized "maiden flight" (with Pakistan visitors) were not the real first flight.

I cannot say when J-20 has the real first flight, and how much testing has already been done. However, I am 100% confident that the silver nozzle J-20 "2001" was not the first flying J-20.

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We all knew right away that the J-10B flew months before the photos appeared. Of course, we didn't know any details, but enough rumors swirled confirming that something happened.

As for the J-10, JH-7, you're talking ancient history. Back then, cell phone cameras (heck, cell phones) were scarce, the internet was dial-up and very much a novelty in China. Not to mention, there simply was not such a dedicated following or blogs, fanboys, or forums.

Even so, the J-20 is a unique plane. It will turn heads. It is far too noticeably different from other Chinese aircraft to have averted any prior rumors of a first flight. The J-10B is hardly different from the J-10 to the untrained eye, but yet we heard about it the very day it flew. The J-20 would be a much harder secret to keep.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, I am saying that if it first flew sometime ago, it didn't fly in Chengdu, and unless they have a way of transporting the craft on land (without being seen) isn't possible.

Remember, we don't even know if there are two prototypes for sure. They have not been seen at the same time.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

We all knew right away that the J-10B flew months before the photos appeared. Of course, we didn't know any details, but enough rumors swirled confirming that something happened.

As for the J-10, JH-7, you're talking ancient history. Back then, cell phone cameras (heck, cell phones) were scarce, the internet was dial-up and very much a novelty in China. Not to mention, there simply was not such a dedicated following or blogs, fanboys, or forums.

Even so, the J-20 is a unique plane. It will turn heads. It is far too noticeably different from other Chinese aircraft to have averted any prior rumors of a first flight. The J-10B is hardly different from the J-10 to the untrained eye, but yet we heard about it the very day it flew. The J-20 would be a much harder secret to keep.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, I am saying that if it first flew sometime ago, it didn't fly in Chengdu, and unless they have a way of transporting the craft on land (without being seen) isn't possible.

Remember, we don't even know if there are two prototypes for sure. They have not been seen at the same time.

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The west of China is largely empty, and I don't see why they wouldn't be able to transport an aircraft dissembled via rail or road. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Saw-toothed doors don't matter if engine compressor blades are exposed

Centrist said:

We all knew right away that the J-10B flew months before the photos appeared. Of course, we didn't know any details, but enough rumors swirled confirming that something happened.

As for the J-10, JH-7, you're talking ancient history. Back then, cell phone cameras (heck, cell phones) were scarce, the internet was dial-up and very much a novelty in China. Not to mention, there simply was not such a dedicated following or blogs, fanboys, or forums.

Even so, the J-20 is a unique plane. It will turn heads. It is far too noticeably different from other Chinese aircraft to have averted any prior rumors of a first flight. The J-10B is hardly different from the J-10 to the untrained eye, but yet we heard about it the very day it flew. The J-20 would be a much harder secret to keep.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, I am saying that if it first flew sometime ago, it didn't fly in Chengdu, and unless they have a way of transporting the craft on land (without being seen) isn't possible.

Remember, we don't even know if there are two prototypes for sure. They have not been seen at the same time.

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Cell phone or no cell phone, any national gvon't knows how to keep a secret. If they want to keep it a secret, they could easily test it in the Gobi desert in the west China. Like most of the US flight testing facilities located in New Mexico and California deserts, China also has all its secret facilities in the Gobi desert where you can't find a single soul in hundreds of miles. Most of the China's secret weapon facilities have been located in the Gobi for a reason (nuclear and space facilities). However, they decided to test it in the middle of a city, one of the biggest cities in the world (Chengdu). Anyonewith half of a brain would know not to test it in Chengdu. Also they decided NOT to kick all those people away and let everyone happily take all those photos. Anyone with an IQ of at least 50 would know not to do that, let alone a gvon't that has been known for its ability to keep a secret. So all these things screams that they want the world to know!

So it's definitely possible that they tested J-20 before hand somewhere else without anyone knowing it. If they test flew it in the Gobi, no one will know. Based on my experience with the Chinese govn't, they would not publically announce anything without knowing it's going to work. Even in the Olympics, they had backup video for the entire ceremony if anything went wrong during the actual ceremony. The fact that they actually allowed people to see the whole test flight suggests that they were extremely confident. You cannot get confidence without actually testing it. So I am almost 100$ sure that they've test-flew the thing beforehand. I would not even be surprised if they tested multiple times.