J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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AndrewS

Brigadier
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I misunderstood, but even by that definition. The J-20 is a defensive platform without air-to-air refueling, global bases, or deployable off aircraft carriers, since it doesn't have the range for offensive operations. Yes, China has some capibilities for all 3, but they are still very new at the game, and the capability is limited at best.

So when the J-20 is out hunting AWACs or tankers East China Seas or in the Western Pacific, what do you call that kind of operation?
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
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BMEWS said the image in his post was a 3D computer model. The satellite image in the Twitter post shows that
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.

Well the 3-D model is only part of it, I plan to make it flyable later, but more like an arcade casual jet flight thing mainly to allow the ability to take photos/videos (Nvidia Ansel etc) at different orientations/ flight configurations (takeoff landing , firing PL-15 missiles, etc) and not really meant to be an accurate flight simulator of any sort... But I probably should have posted it in the 3D/animation/gaming/misc/etc section and not directly in J20 section.

I don't know anything about that twitter model, if it is indeed a physical 3d model or computer 3d model, its not related to the one I posted and am working on...
 

Inst

Captain
The J-20 has the range to do dogfights over Tokyo if needed, or for that matter, do bombing runs on Taipei.

The defensive vs offensive platform dispute is dumb, because you have to remember the advantages of aircraft over ballistic missiles. Aircraft are not simply reusable compared to ballistic missiles, they're also a lot more mobile. China currently has a ballistic missile superiority over Taiwan, insofar as they're fairly close to being able to crater the ROC military from ballistic missiles alone.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean that they have a ballistic missile superiority over India; i.e; while China has around 1500 DF-15s pointed at Taiwan, it doesn't mean that it has 1500 DF-15s pointed at New Delhi and the Indian airfields that could matter in a border dispute. On the other hand, J-20s currently targeted at Taiwan could be cheaply and quickly moved to conduct air defense or strike missions vs India because of the sheer mobility of air power.

The Chinese, of course, could simply move to longer-ranged missiles to cover multiple opponents at once, but longer-ranged missiles are expensive. Short-ranged missiles like DF-15s are cheap and extremely cost effective.

And that's one of the reasons the US is so air power centric; American planes can be flown to any location the US has basing or could get basing support for on short notice.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
The J-20 has the range to do dogfights over Tokyo if needed, or for that matter, do bombing runs on Taipei.

The defensive vs offensive platform dispute is dumb, because you have to remember the advantages of aircraft over ballistic missiles. Aircraft are not simply reusable compared to ballistic missiles, they're also a lot more mobile. China currently has a ballistic missile superiority over Taiwan, insofar as they're fairly close to being able to crater the ROC military from ballistic missiles alone.

But at the same time, that doesn't mean that they have a ballistic missile superiority over India; i.e; while China has around 1500 DF-15s pointed at Taiwan, it doesn't mean that it has 1500 DF-15s pointed at New Delhi and the Indian airfields that could matter in a border dispute. On the other hand, J-20s currently targeted at Taiwan could be cheaply and quickly moved to conduct air defense or strike missions vs India because of the sheer mobility of air power.

The Chinese, of course, could simply move to longer-ranged missiles to cover multiple opponents at once, but longer-ranged missiles are expensive. Short-ranged missiles like DF-15s are cheap and extremely cost effective.

And that's one of the reasons the US is so air power centric; American planes can be flown to any location the US has basing or could get basing support for on short notice.

Aircraft works for the US because they have the infrastructure: bases, aircraft carriers, tankers, etc. and they are always planning to fight against weak enemies like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, with no air defense systems. Survivability is not a main concern for the US, reusability is.

Aircraft doesn't work for China, because China doesn't have the infrastructure, ie bases, carriers, tankers etc. Or very limited amount of infrastructure compared to the US. Lastly, China is worried about confrontation with strong nations like the US or Japan etc. which have very advanced air-defence systems and air-superiority fighters. So unlike the US, survivability is extremely important for China, more so than resuability. Thats why ballistic missiles are more suited for China's purposes and aircraft less so.

Different countries, different needs, different strategies. So I agree with the assertion that China will not go crazy and build hundreds of J-20s, because it doesnt fit in their doctrine.
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Different countries, different needs, different strategies. So I agree with the assertion that China will not go crazy and build hundreds of J-20s, because it doesnt fit in their doctrine.
I don't see how building hundreds of J-20s is crazy or against the PLAAF doctrine. Just because we only have a small list of production serials does not mean the J-20 production is somehow very slow.
 

Inst

Captain
Aircraft works for the US because they have the infrastructure: bases, aircraft carriers, tankers, etc. and they are always planning to fight against weak enemies like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, with no air defense systems. Survivability is not a main concern for the US, reusability is.

Aircraft doesn't work for China, because China doesn't have the infrastructure, ie bases, carriers, tankers etc. Or very limited amount of infrastructure compared to the US. Lastly, China is worried about confrontation with strong nations like the US or Japan etc. which have very advanced air-defence systems and air-superiority fighters. So unlike the US, survivability is extremely important for China, more so than resuability. Thats why ballistic missiles are more suited for China's purposes and aircraft less so.

Different countries, different needs, different strategies. So I agree with the assertion that China will not go crazy and build hundreds of J-20s, because it doesnt fit in their doctrine.

I mean, you're purportedly an Indian so I'd think you're ignorant about the basic situation.

The basic problem between air attack and air defense is that air attack can be highly concentrated on a specific location. Surface-based air defense, on the other hand, ends up being dispersed, and because it's relatively immobile, it's more vulnerable to bombardment by means other than air attack, including cruise and ballistic missiles.

Just to offset the planned 2500 F-35s the US is planning to build, including the 1200 F-35s that will likely be in the Asia Pacific Region, will require hundreds of J-20s just to conduct air defense.

Why? Because you'd need to blanket the entire Chinese coast in air defense systems to have the detection, tracking, and destruction capability vs mass stealth attack such as the F-35 or, for that matter, the B-2 or B-21 systems. The better way to do so would be to employ counter-stealth AEW&C, which are mobile, and stealth fighters, which are also mobile for this task. Long-range anti-stealth radar, likewise, can provide detection and tracking to cue the mobile air defense elements.

You also have to remember, the longest ranged air defense missile (S-400) reaches out 400 km, and with all anti-air missiles, you have to wonder what the effective range is against a maneuvering target. A long-ranged cruise missile, such as those in both Chinese and American possession, can range out to 800 km.

And I'll also point out another issue. China isn't the United States, which has global interests with global warfare capabilities. China is China, whose immediate military interests amount primarily to Taiwan, and then the Sino-Indian frontier on a much reduced scale. China only needs to be able to put air power into its adjacent regions, so China doesn't need the exhaustive tanker and carrier infrastructure the US has. Bases on Chinese territory are enough.
 

Inst

Captain
Leave that out of here please.
Just pointing out a general ignorance of Chinese defense affairs.

Most people are confident in the capabilities they have and doubtful of capabilities they lack. For instance, a force that doesn't have stealth aircraft tends to play up the effectiveness of their ground-based air defense in combination with their 4th generation aircraft. A force that is weak in terms of aircraft tends to play up the effectiveness of their ground-based air defense.

I'm pointing out the inadequacy of ground-based air defense and 4th gens vs a 5th gen threat, and why China has a need for a large fleet of stealth air defense fighters like the J-20 or even aircraft like the Su-57, just to offset the F-35 fleet. What free_6ix9ine is trying to say is that the 5th gen gap between China and India doesn't matter that much, because the Chinese aren't going to build a large J-20 fleet. I'm trying to pop that consolation.
 
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