J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

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latenlazy

Brigadier
F22 has a monstrous T:W ratio still unbeaten to this day. Don't think anything gonna top that till a VCE/ACE engine breakthrough.

If I understand correctly, for sustain turn the sub-sonic lift-drag the higher the better with a powerful enough engine but it's a liability for super-sonic cruise because too much drag.
If F-22 is so good at sustain turn which I believe is better than the gold standard F-16,
how does F-22 overcome the drag and maintain supercruise with only dry thrust?
Good lift to drag ratios are not inherently antithetical to good supercruise capability or supersonic maneuverability. Lift to drag ratio at subsonic speeds do not have a fixed relationship with drag at supersonic speeds. What happens to your drag coefficient at supersonic regimes is dependent on wing and airframe geometries, *not* on what your lift to drag ratio is at subsonic regimes.

Nor is the lift coefficient a fixed variable. Lift coefficient changes based on your altitude, your airspeed, and your angle of attack (as well as how your other flight control devices are engaged). Both lift and drag go up at higher angles of attack, but the former tends to increase faster than the latter up to a point before hitting your stall angle. When "high lift" or "good lift" is mentioned what's really meant is that the slope of your lift coefficient as angle of attack changes is very high and/or your lift coefficient peaks out at very high angles of attack and/or that the maximum lift coefficient you can attain before drag becomes greater than lift (and thus you stop generating upward force) is very high. Out of these the L:D ratio at high angles of attack is most relevant for assessing maneuverability, and specifically turn rates, because so long as your lift is higher than your drag you have a net positive force vector for your maneuvering. The lift vector here matters for turn rates because to execute turns planes have to bank first, which converts some of the upward force vector from lift into an angular force vector to rotate the body of the plane. Turning faster invariably requires some pitching of the nose, which is where good lift to drag coefficients at higher angles of attack come into play.

It tends to be the case that if you have good lift to drag ratio in the subsonic regime, so long as your airframe and wing geometries don't incur a massive increase in drag in the supersonic regime relative to other geometries, that advantage will translate to the supersonic regime. It is correct to note that *drag* is the key factor here, but it does not follow that just because you have great subsonic lift that also means you will have punishing supersonic drag. In fact, "high lift" designs are often considered such because they have a superior lift to drag ratio, which means for the same drag they get more lift. And this is almost certainly going to be the case with the F-22.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Good lift to drag ratios are not inherently antithetical to good supercruise capability or supersonic maneuverability. Lift to drag ratio at subsonic speeds do not have a fixed relationship with drag at supersonic speeds. What happens to your drag coefficient at supersonic regimes is dependent on wing and airframe geometries, *not* on what your lift to drag ratio is at subsonic regimes.

Nor is the lift coefficient a fixed variable. Lift coefficient changes based on your altitude, your airspeed, and your angle of attack (as well as how your other flight control devices are engaged). Both lift and drag go up at higher angles of attack, but the former tends to increase faster than the latter up to a point before hitting your stall angle. When "high lift" or "good lift" is mentioned what's really meant is that the slope of your lift coefficient as angle of attack changes is very high and/or your lift coefficient peaks out at very high angles of attack and/or that the maximum lift coefficient you can attain before drag becomes greater than lift (and thus you stop generating upward force) is very high. Out of these the L:D ratio at high angles of attack is most relevant for assessing maneuverability, and specifically turn rates, because so long as your lift is higher than your drag you have a net positive force vector for your maneuvering. The lift vector here matters for turn rates because to execute turns planes have to bank first, which converts some of the upward force vector from lift into an angular force vector to rotate the body of the plane. Turning faster invariably requires some pitching of the nose, which is where good lift to drag coefficients at higher angles of attack come into play.

It tends to be the case that if you have good lift to drag ratio in the subsonic regime, so long as your airframe and wing geometries don't incur a massive increase in drag in the supersonic regime relative to other geometries, that advantage will translate to the supersonic regime. It is correct to note that *drag* is the key factor here, but it does not follow that just because you have great subsonic lift that also means you will have punishing supersonic drag. In fact, "high lift" designs are often considered such because they have a superior lift to drag ratio, which means for the same drag they get more lift. And this is almost certainly going to be the case with the F-22.

Your background surely is in aeronautical engineering? Or is this mostly pieced together internet knowledge on some aeronautics?

How much does the canards vs conventional layout mean for sustained turn in the context of J-20 and F-22? Seeing as canards are regarded by us non professionals here as having inferior STR compared to conventional layouts but often described as having superior supersonic kinematic performance. Could you explain a bit about the "superiority" in the supersonic regime? Does it suddenly get boosted in STR while conventional get nerfed here or does ITR mean more for some reason in supersonic? Is it simply a biological consideration given how a similar turn (tighter) produces greater Gs at higher speeds?

Angle of attack is mentioned a lot in the last few pages in the context of those two clips of J-20's turning at low speed. Just a more random question on this alpha, is it simply the angle between nose pointing and velocity vector? Or does it only apply to more linear/horizontal situations where velocity vector is perfectly horizontal (or as close to) and nose up with alpha being angle between these two lines?
 

minime

Junior Member
Registered Member
Good lift to drag ratios are not inherently antithetical to good supercruise capability or supersonic maneuverability.
Thx.
So in short, super-sonic performance is more about wing and airframe geometries and sub-sonic STR is more about AOA lift-to-drag coefficient, correct?
Those two are more or less independent of each other thus a good design can get the best of both worlds which is the case of F-22.
But what about J-20 since it's obviously coming from a different approach than F-22/Su-57.
There has to be a focus or design choice to lean on certain aspects of performance because I believe no airplane is perfect.
I get more confused after reading this post regarding the J-20 design choice.
What's J-20 focus on?
One would lean on super-sonic region because of wing and airframe geometries but the consensus is that J-20 still can't supercruise.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thx.
So in short, super-sonic performance is more about wing and airframe geometries and sub-sonic STR is more about AOA lift-to-drag coefficient, correct?
Those two are more or less independent of each other thus a good design can get the best of both worlds which is the case of F-22.
But what about J-20 since it's obviously coming from a different approach than F-22/Su-57.
There has to be a focus or design choice to lean on certain aspects of performance because I believe no airplane is perfect.
I get more confused after reading this post regarding the J-20 design choice.
What's J-20 focus on?
One would lean on super-sonic region because of wing and airframe geometries but the consensus is that J-20 still can't supercruise.

IIRC it's been more or less officially hinted upon that J-20 can supercruise and has been supercruise capable since 2017/18 LRIP J-20 batch using modified Al-31xyz engines. The pilots have been saying that J-20's kinematic performance is "tuned" for supersonic flight regimes and its performance in subsonic speeds is good but performance in supersonic is where it really comes into its element.

I'd imagine WS-10C to be no barrier to supercruising if Al-31 allows batch 1 service J-20s to supercruise albeit speculated everywhere to be very low range supercruise. But this is my assumption since WS-10C has a very different bypass ratio iirc compared to Al-31 and it may be a bypass ratio that makes it harder? No idea sorry. Anyway dry thrust of the two engines are the same class so the bypass ratio shouldn't really matter wrt supercruise.
 

minime

Junior Member
Registered Member
IIRC it's been more or less officially hinted upon that J-20 can supercruise and has been supercruise capable since 2017/18 LRIP J-20 batch using modified Al-31xyz engines. The pilots have been saying that J-20's kinematic performance is "tuned" for supersonic flight regimes and its performance in subsonic speeds is good but performance in supersonic is where it really comes into its element.
Yeah, I noticed that too but good supersonic maneuverability doesn't translate to supercruise.
It might be the contribution of all moving vertical stabilizer and the canard.

On the other hand, IMO bypass ratio is very much to do with supercruise since a smaller bypass ratio produces less drag.
Just like F119 & F135.
 
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