J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

Philister · Jun 29, 2021

It’s a F414(EJ230 if being optimistic)class engine with a size of RD93,that’s for sure,it couldn’t possibly be fitted into a J-20 without major structural change.

Philister said:
WS-19 definitely comes with a TVC nozzle,they’ve shown it in CG at Zhuhai2018(if I remember correctly),yet that CG should be taken as an evidence that WS-19 will be equipped with a TVC nozzle but not too seriously,the nozzle could be different in reality(they do that A LOT,I’m sure you’ve seen the recent CZ-9 2021,yep,could happen but the chance is just not good)
And the TVC nozzle they showed in CGI is actually a Russian style nozzle which has never been found in academic essays or seen as a demonstrator ,actually multiple essays came to a conclusion that raptor-style TVC is the best and should be developed for future aircraft(more thrust loss but by reducing the drag actually improves the high-speed performance,lower RCS,lower heat signature ) ,the TVC nozzle we’ve seen on J-10B comes second (lowest thrust loss ),and the AL-31-style TVC is the worst)
I mean ,if you are talking about possibility without substance,even a raptor-like TVC is more likely than that one,it was under development since 80s ,there’s a video with Chinese president JiangZeMing in it.

My point still stands,that CG shouldn’t be taken seriously,at the end of the day ,TVC nozzle used on WS-19 would either be a J-10B-like thing or a Raptor-like thing,it just makes no sense to use that nozzle on WS-19

Xizor · Jun 29, 2021

manqiangrexue said:
I think @latenlazy was talking about @Xsizor 's CGI pic saying it is WS-19 but @Philister thought he was talking about Deino's most recent J-20 pic in yellow and said that it's insane to think that they had put WS-19 nozzles on the J-20. That's how I read it until I got things straight.

That CGI is just from that video of a TVC engine from an expo. You get that with a Google search of WS-15.

Just so we are clear - I don't know what's WS-15 is supposed to look like.

Many members said the "flower petals" would be even in number and serrated that's optimized for stealth.
Some others later mentioned that it could be a 2D rectangular nozzle (like F22).

And then there is this video. When I saw the image of J-20, the serrations reminded me of this video.

Correct me if wrong but the AL-31 equipped batch of J-20 doesn't have serrations.
The WS-10C equipped does. Does this image look like WS-10C? Apparently, the senior watchers think so, so I left it there.

It might be a trick of light caused by distortion due to temperature of exhaust or the sun. But i didn't see a serration as numerous as WS-10C.

Blitzo · Jun 29, 2021

manqiangrexue said:
I think @latenlazy was talking about @Xsizor 's CGI pic saying it is WS-19 but @Philister thought he was talking about Deino's most recent J-20 pic in yellow and said that it's insane to think that they had put WS-19 nozzles on the J-20. That's how I read it until I got things straight.

That was my impression too, which was why I was careful to specify it was the CGI image and not the image of the J-20.

In any case, the quote function is always useful because you can always click on what the person you're replying to said, and in turn look back to see what they in turn were replying too.
Often misunderstandings can be avoided by taking that extra step.

Richard Santos · Jun 29, 2021

Deino said:
Thanks a lot and indeed, looks like a TVC-nozzle!

By the way, ... one of the clearest images of a WS-10C powered J-20A.

And as per image data by the photographer it was taken already on 7th July 2019.

(Image by YY.Li via Airliners.com)

View attachment 74015

it might be an optical illusion, but it looks to me like the nozzles to that J-20 isn’t arranged axial symmetrically. instead the turkey feathers are skewed down wards, implying the nozzle is vectoring. I will go out on limb and say those ARE TVC nozzles.

KampfAlwin · Jun 29, 2021

Could that TVC J-20 be related to the first flight of the 'complete form' aircraft? Or the complete form of J-20 would be WS-15 not this TVC which could be WS-10?

Richard Santos · Jun 29, 2021

Notice every GE after burning turbofan engine had nozzles of extremely similar appearance, scaled to match engine size. Pratt & Whitney didn’t have as many engines of this type in service but the two that came after TF30 with non-vectoring nozzles also had very similar looking nozzles.

I would venture to say there might be little compelling reason for a manufacturer to significantly change nozzle design for after burning turbofan once it achieves a satisfactory design. so it simply scale the same design for different sized engines.

I suspect chinese engine makes share considerable more between them than between GE and Pratt & Whitney because they all state owned, so I suspect a similar type (TVC vs non-TVC) of nozzles on all indigenous chinese afterburning turbofans would be essentially identical in apparemce.

latenlazy · Jun 29, 2021

Xsizor said:
That CGI is just from that video of a TVC engine from an expo. You get that with a Google search of WS-15.

Just so we are clear - I don't know what's WS-15 is supposed to look like.

Many members said the "flower petals" would be even in number and serrated that's optimized for stealth.
Some others later mentioned that it could be a 2D rectangular nozzle (like F22).

And then there is this video. When I saw the image of J-20, the serrations reminded me of this video.

Correct me if wrong but the AL-31 equipped batch of J-20 doesn't have serrations.
The WS-10C equipped does. Does this image look like WS-10C? Apparently, the senior watchers think so, so I left it there.

It might be a trick of light caused by distortion due to temperature of exhaust or the sun. But i didn't see a serration as numerous as WS-10C.

Regardless of what Google labels it as, the nozzle from that animation looks very similar to the one photo of the WS-19 we do have.

Blitzo · Jun 29, 2021

KampfAlwin said:
Could that TVC J-20 be related to the first flight of the 'complete form' aircraft? Or the complete form of J-20 would be WS-15 not this TVC which could be WS-10?

Both interpretations could be viable depending on how enthusiastic one is and how far they're willing to stretch the meaning of the descriptor.

=====

I'm going to say it now -- if recently J-20 has flown with new engine(s), the only way we're going to get definitive image confirmation whether it is WS-15 or not, is by having definitively clear images of the nozzle +/- the flame holder to compare with the TVC WS-10.
Other things that will likely help will include estimates of the engine size compared to known dimensions of WS-10.

The geometry of the rest of the aircraft (including intakes) may or may not change between whether J-20 is fitted with WS-15 versus WS-10.

I expect it will take us a while to get very clear pictures of this new J-20 that's flown with new engine(s), if it indeed has even emerged at all.
Based on that, unless some very clear definitive statements come out about the identity of the engine from the highest calibre of insiders that have long established track records, I would take everything with substantial caution at this stage.

KampfAlwin · Jun 29, 2021

Bltizo said:
Both interpretations could be viable depending on how enthusiastic one is and how far they're willing to stretch the meaning of the descriptor.

=====

I'm going to say it now -- if recently J-20 has flown with new engine(s), the only way we're going to get definitive image confirmation whether it is WS-15 or not, is by having definitively clear images of the nozzle +/- the flame holder to compare with the TVC WS-10.
Other things that will likely help will include estimates of the engine size compared to known dimensions of WS-10.

The geometry of the rest of the aircraft (including intakes) may or may not change between whether J-20 is fitted with WS-15 versus WS-10.

I expect it will take us a while to get very clear pictures of this new J-20 that's flown with new engine(s), if it indeed has even emerged at all.
Based on that, unless some very clear definitive statements come out about the identity of the engine from the highest calibre of insiders that have long established track records, I would take everything with substantial caution at this stage.

I agree with everything. Though, I am curious(if true) why the PLA is testing a TVC J-20? Isn't the WS-15 expected to be fielded within this decade? Why add another engine type?

Philister · Jun 29, 2021

That CGI is just from that video of a TVC engine from an expo. You get that with a Google search of WS-15.

Xsizor said:
Just so we are clear - I don't know what's WS-15 is supposed to look like.

Many members said the "flower petals" would be even in number and serrated that's optimized for stealth.
Some others later mentioned that it could be a 2D rectangular nozzle (like F22).

Xsizor said:

That CGI is just from that video of a TVC engine from an expo. You get that with a Google search of WS-15.

Just so we are clear - I don't know what's WS-15 is supposed to look like.

Many members said the "flower petals" would be even in number and serrated that's optimized for stealth.
Some others later mentioned that it could be a 2D rectangular nozzle (like F22).

And then there is this video. When I saw the image of J-20, the serrations reminded me of this video.

Correct me if wrong but the AL-31 equipped batch of J-20 doesn't have serrations.
The WS-10C equipped does. Does this image look like WS-10C? Apparently, the senior watchers think so, so I left it there.

It might be a trick of light caused by distortion due to temperature of exhaust or the sun. But i didn't see a serration as numerous as WS-10C.

Click to expand...

And then there is this video. When I saw the image of J-20, the serrations reminded me of this video.

Correct me if wrong but the AL-31 equipped batch of J-20 doesn't have serrations.
The WS-10C equipped does. Does this image look like WS-10C? Apparently, the senior watchers think so, so I left it there.

It might be a trick of light caused by distortion due to temperature of exhaust or the sun. But i didn't see a serration as numerous as WS-10C.

Xsizor said:

That CGI is just from that video of a TVC engine from an expo. You get that with a Google search of WS-15.

Just so we are clear - I don't know what's WS-15 is supposed to look like.

Many members said the "flower petals" would be even in number and serrated that's optimized for stealth.
Some others later mentioned that it could be a 2D rectangular nozzle (like F22).

And then there is this video. When I saw the image of J-20, the serrations reminded me of this video.

Correct me if wrong but the AL-31 equipped batch of J-20 doesn't have serrations.
The WS-10C equipped does. Does this image look like WS-10C? Apparently, the senior watchers think so, so I left it there.

It might be a trick of light caused by distortion due to temperature of exhaust or the sun. But i didn't see a serration as numerous as

Click to expand...

KampfAlwin said:
I agree with everything. Though, I am curious(if true) why the PLA is testing a TVC J-20? Isn't the WS-15 expected to be fielded within this decade? Why add another engine type?

More likely to test TVC than WS-10,since you can’t use a AL-31 to do that

J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

Philister

Junior Member

Xizor

Captain

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Richard Santos

Captain

KampfAlwin

Senior Member

Richard Santos

Captain

latenlazy

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

KampfAlwin

Senior Member

Philister

Junior Member