J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[latenlazy]

One foggy morning 13 years ago…

View attachment 122930

Stop it you’re making me feel old.

 

[Deino]

One foggy morning 13 years ago…

View attachment 122930

A bit larger ... and indeed, I feel old!

 

[Deino]

So far only few images are known showing the first J-20 demonstrator number 2001 after being repainted to a two-tone grey colour scheme. This one seems to be the best I know so far.

(Image via @四川地产界高层-军事画匠 from Weibo)

 

[kwaigonegin]

Modern fighter (stealth or not) is to fight when it's required. Gun isn't really a big a/a consideration nowadays, but a couple of dedicated WVR missile bays and that whole 360deg vision are here.
Nor 5th gen fighter is any particularly scarce resource to be kept back - they're being produced at the same rates and for similar prices to the previous generation fighters.
Losing older planes instead of J-20s made sense when J-7s were still around and J-20 were scarce. Not anymore.

The way to maximize VLO advantage is to come closer to targets than is possible otherwise, and aim for more closer range, unescapeable ambushes.
Staying at 200km cosplaying a su-35 with half a ton rockets doesn't really maximize it - both are out of reach, it's more of an invisible Joe strategy.

The goal of tip of the spear is to decisively get deep into something. Avoiding WVR(and closer quarters in general) when it's exactly a relative strength of J-20 is suboptimal.

The problem is not the plane. It's the pilots. A good pilot is worth 50 J20s at least; for the simple fact that you can make a J20 exponentially faster than turning a human into an ace fighter pilot.

 

[Gloire_bb]

The problem is not the plane. It's the pilots. A good pilot is worth 50 J20s at least; for the simple fact that you can make a J20 exponentially faster than turning a human into an ace fighter pilot.

Depends on the scale of the system - pilot preparation is highly scalable. WW2 and Cold War air forces mustered tens of thousands of fighter pilots.

A system aimed at good enough professionals is a good system; ultimately, a fighter pilot is just a professional from a glorified military college.
System trying to produce irreplaceable extreme professionals (and thus placing on them more value than what they actually have) will be fragile to losses and hard to commit against the risks.

And indecisiveness in air war costs the lives of soldiers on the ground or water. Their lives aren't somehow less valuable.

 

[Blitzo]

The problem is not the plane. It's the pilots. A good pilot is worth 50 J20s at least; for the simple fact that you can make a J20 exponentially faster than turning a human into an ace fighter pilot.

I'm not sure where this idea is coming from. It sounds almost top gun (movie) esque.

The plane is absolutely important. There is typically a reason why in past years/decades, when they put up new pilots in brand new fighters (like F-22 at the time) against highly experienced pilots in existing generation fighters (at the time), that the new fighters with green pilots tend to cream the existing gen fighters with experienced pilots.

And in context of the discussion that Gloire was having with plawolf, which was about the relevance of guns in modern fighter aircraft, pilot experience becomes even less relevant because it is such a niche of a niche tactical situation in the modern battlespace, yes it is a niche situation even in a "tip of the spear" scenario if one is using their J-20s more aggressively.


More broadly speaking, it should be most accurate to say that having competitive/capable hardware is vital, however having the capable human resources (not just pilots, but also ground crews, crews on force multipliers, commanders who know where to distribute and operate their forces) is important.


However something like "a good pilot is worth 50 J-20s at least" means nothing.

 

[CMP]

The problem is not the plane. It's the pilots. A good pilot is worth 50 J20s at least; for the simple fact that you can make a J20 exponentially faster than turning a human into an ace fighter pilot.

I'm no pilot, but I am the most renowned 8 star Space Force admiral on this side of the Virgo Supercluster. Based on my humble professional experience, accrued through planning and directing multiple space battles of 1000+ combatants, it is very clear that when all else is equal (fighter, munitions, etc.), 1 above average pilot is worth 1.2531 average pilots.

 

[Maikeru]

Depends on the scale of the system - pilot preparation is highly scalable. WW2 and Cold War air forces mustered tens of thousands of fighter pilots.

A system aimed at good enough professionals is a good system; ultimately, a fighter pilot is just a professional from a glorified military college.
System trying to produce irreplaceable extreme professionals (and thus placing on them more value than what they actually have) will be fragile to losses and hard to commit against the risks.

And indecisiveness in air war costs the lives of soldiers on the ground or water. Their lives aren't somehow less valuable.

In WW2 the Luftwaffe and, to a lesser extent, IJA/N, has far, far more, and far higher scoring, aces than the allies, but they still lost the air war. Just about every ace with 100+ kills was German.

 

[kwaigonegin]

I'm not sure where this idea is coming from. It sounds almost top gun (movie) esque.

The plane is absolutely important. There is typically a reason why in past years/decades, when they put up new pilots in brand new fighters (like F-22 at the time) against highly experienced pilots in existing generation fighters (at the time), that the new fighters with green pilots tend to cream the existing gen fighters with experienced pilots.

And in context of the discussion that Gloire was having with plawolf, which was about the relevance of guns in modern fighter aircraft, pilot experience becomes even less relevant because it is such a niche of a niche tactical situation in the modern battlespace, yes it is a niche situation even in a "tip of the spear" scenario if one is using their J-20s more aggressively.


More broadly speaking, it should be most accurate to say that having competitive/capable hardware is vital, however having the capable human resources (not just pilots, but also ground crews, crews on force multipliers, commanders who know where to distribute and operate their forces) is important.


However something like "a good pilot is worth 50 J-20s at least" means nothing.

I'm not saying the plane isn't important. I'm saying from a time perspective it takes less time to built a plane than it is to train a competent pilot.

 

[kwaigonegin]

In WW2 the Luftwaffe and, to a lesser extent, IJA/N, has far, far more, and far higher scoring, aces than the allies, but they still lost the air war. Just about every ace with 100+ kills was German.

Only in the earlier stages. Luftwaffe was running out of pilots after 1944 but to be fair planes too but only because thier factories were bombed.
Also it takes significantly less time to train someone to fly a Bf109 than a J20.
It takes 2 years minimum to train a fighter pilot. Abpit 4 to make him.into a good one. How long does it take to built a plane? A week or less.