J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[Atomicfrog]

It is this way. But if for some reason ambush failed - it is up to the attacker if he wants to continue or call off the attack.
If anything, it may be reasonable to continue the attack just to retain the initiative, not giving any space to counterattack.

I personally suspect that it's actually medium-to-low range combat where in a fight between two modern air combat systems, modern aircraft will have the most advantage.

Upgraded 4th gen aircraft, such as F-16V, can lob BVR missiles at 5th gen opponents under ground/AWACS control. Their datalinks are reasonable, their radars are modern, their weapons are the best in the west. Their weaknesses in a controlled environment are solvable.
How F-16V will perform, say, in night group dogfight against 5th gen opponent, relying only on helmet night vision and only your own forward-looking FoF, because aggressive 5th gen force simply merged in - I wonder.
Fighting blind against a stealthy, fully interlinked opponent who isn't blind at all - doesn't sound fun.


There is often some sort of unspoken truth, that close-range fighting is fairer to older fighter designs with the newest upgrades. I honestly wonder if it's the case...

Defending China, If J-20 can get rid of US tankers... nothing will come in medium to short range beside strategic bombers and cruise missiles.

 

[Maikeru]

If you're a 5th gen fighter pilot and you end up in a WVR knife fight, what are you?

Answer: an idiot.

 

[Aswin_hht]

It is this way. But if for some reason ambush failed - it is up to the attacker if he wants to continue or call off the attack.
If anything, it may be reasonable to continue the attack just to retain the initiative, not giving any space to counterattack.

I personally suspect that it's actually medium-to-low range combat where in a fight between two modern air combat systems, modern aircraft will have the most advantage.

Upgraded 4th gen aircraft, such as F-16V, can lob BVR missiles at 5th gen opponents under ground/AWACS control. Their datalinks are reasonable, their radars are modern, their weapons are the best in the west. Their weaknesses in a controlled environment are solvable.
How F-16V will perform, say, in night group dogfight against 5th gen opponent, relying only on helmet night vision and only your own forward-looking FoF, because aggressive 5th gen force simply merged in - I wonder.
Fighting blind against a stealthy, fully interlinked opponent who isn't blind at all - doesn't sound fun.


There is often some sort of unspoken truth, that close-range fighting is fairer to older fighter designs with the newest upgrades. I honestly wonder if it's the case...

Sure. A 4.5 gen fighter can fire missiles at fifth gens with AWACS/ground support but at that point they are taking a massive risk with a possibility of a small reward. Even in such a scenario, a fifth gen has a much higher probability of evading your missiles than you evading his, moreover, you are also exposing a very valuable asset (AWACS/Ground radars) against 5th gen fighters, one that can carry very long range air to air missiles, one that can easily coordinate a strike on the exposed ground target. Even if none of that happens, a 5th gen can easily retreat after wasting a lot of your resources. Trying to hunt fifth gens using 4.5 gen aircrafts (even with external support) is a lost cause.

As for the WVR scenario. Well, of the said F-16V is being supported by AWACS/ground radar then why would it just stay there and let a fifth gen get to WVR range at such a disadvantageous position? I find no sense in the argument. I mean the chance of a fifth gen somehow getting in WVR range with a 4.5 gen supported by AWACS/ground would considerable more difficult than getting a BVR kill on it.

 

[manqiangrexue]

If you're a 5th gen fighter pilot and you end up in a WVR knife fight, what are you?

Answer: an idiot.

Well, unless it's up against another 5th gen and neither of you can get a weapons-quality lock on the other in BVR due to stealth so you gotta knife fight it out.

 

[siegecrossbow]

J-16 pilots from Du Fengrui Brigade have had some success in two vs two exercises against the J-20. The strategy was not trivial and required several sleepless nights to come up with, and for obvious reasons the details are rather nebulous. But the gist of it is to bait the stealth fighters into opening fire control when you and your wingman are within lockon range of the enemies so you can track and engage via active/passive sensors. Supposedly this strategy has had some success under real world conditions against F-35s as well.

Stealth fighters are not really invincible in this day and age. What they are good at is limiting the number of options you have to counter them.

 

[Deino]

J-16 pilots from Du Fengrui Brigade have had some success in two vs two exercises against the J-20. The strategy was not trivial and required several sleepless nights to come up with, and for obvious reasons the details are rather nebulous. But the gist of it is to bait the stealth fighters into opening fire control when you and your wingman are within lockon range of the enemies so you can track and engage via active/passive sensors. Supposedly this strategy has had some success under real world conditions against F-35s as well.

Stealth fighters are not really invincible in this day and age. What they are good at is limiting the number of options you have to counter them.

Du Fengrui Brigade is which one?

 

[BoraTas]

J-16 pilots from Du Fengrui Brigade have had some success in two vs two exercises against the J-20. The strategy was not trivial and required several sleepless nights to come up with, and for obvious reasons the details are rather nebulous. But the gist of it is to bait the stealth fighters into opening fire control when you and your wingman are within lockon range of the enemies so you can track and engage via active/passive sensors. Supposedly this strategy has had some success under real world conditions against F-35s as well.

Stealth fighters are not really invincible in this day and age. What they are good at is limiting the number of options you have to counter them.

There is an ex-F-15 pilot I follow on Twitter. According to him, stealth fighters are killed much more frequently in training than it makes to the media.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

J-16 pilots from Du Fengrui Brigade have had some success in two vs two exercises against the J-20. The strategy was not trivial and required several sleepless nights to come up with, and for obvious reasons the details are rather nebulous. But the gist of it is to bait the stealth fighters into opening fire control when you and your wingman are within lockon range of the enemies so you can track and engage via active/passive sensors. Supposedly this strategy has had some success under real world conditions against F-35s as well.

Stealth fighters are not really invincible in this day and age. What they are good at is limiting the number of options you have to counter them.

There is an ex-F-15 pilot I follow on Twitter. According to him, stealth fighters are killed much more frequently in training than it makes to the media.

Usually, under what kinds of conditions are stealth fighters being killed more frequently "than it makes to the media"?

This is even more key to the topic than just the outright "stealth fighters are no different than non-stealth fighters today" quote.

(Also because the US is seen going all-in on VLO designs for their B-21 and NGADs as well - Similarly, with China and other countries who are working on next-gen air combat systems.)

 

[defenceman]

Hi
sorry to be a knob, but is it possible for tankers & awacs to carry
something in line with. Ere powerful EW kind of pods carrying around
their waists or on wings
if that’s a possibility a stealth plane firing radars towards these planes can
expose themselves too to take a pinch of salt if I’m not wrong
thank you

 

[tamsen_ikard]

If you're a 5th gen fighter pilot and you end up in a WVR knife fight, what are you?

Answer: an idiot.

Not so. If you are facing another stealth fighter, then both cannot use BVR if the stealth is good. Eventually you end up in an WVR fight against another stealth fighter jet.

I think in the future, most dogfights could again become WVR if stealth becomes more and more prevalent.