F-22 definitely have superior kinematic performance until WS-15 become available even in terms of acceleration and supercruise performance which both are critical to BVR battles.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
where did I even mention dogfighting in my message...?
Apparently those lock ons in training/exercises was with F-22 taking extra load in the form of external tanks. Either way, the fact that F-18s and Rafales have locked onto F-22 in WVR training/exercise is nothing to conclude anything on.
Can we all just note that modern air combat places lower emphasis on maneuverability in the flight regimes that fighters like Su-35, Su-57 and F-22 excel at mostly thanks to TVC.
Seriously, a Su-35 may be better at those airshow turns than a Typhoon or J-10C but I'd bet on the Typhoon and J-10C dominating over a Su-35 in actual combat. Flying so well doesn't translate into a better air superiority fighter.
F-22 has ancient sensors and software. Yes bits and bobs get upgraded but it's still going to be lacking as long as that radar is still from the 2000s, it's lacking any EOTS equivalent, computer architecture from the 1990s.
The US made a mistake to close down the F-22 line, preventing the F-22 lineage from adopting newer blocks and limiting it to piecemeal upgrades a la J-11B -> J-11BG which is not comparable to a J-16 even though a J-11BG is newer than early block J-16s.
The US considered the F-35 to be a better spend of funding and in the 1990s and 2000s it didn't appear they needed anything remotely close to F-22 and F-35 until 2040s and they knew they were going to have F-22/F-35 replacement generation by the 2040s at the latest anyway.
Can we all just note that modern air combat places lower emphasis on maneuverability in the flight regimes that fighters like Su-35, Su-57 and F-22 excel at mostly thanks to TVC.
Seriously, a Su-35 may be better at those airshow turns than a Typhoon or J-10C but I'd bet on the Typhoon and J-10C dominating over a Su-35 in actual combat. Flying so well doesn't translate into a better air superiority fighter.
F-22 has ancient sensors and software. Yes bits and bobs get upgraded but it's still going to be lacking as long as that radar is still from the 2000s, it's lacking any EOTS equivalent, computer architecture from the 1990s.
The US made a mistake to close down the F-22 line, preventing the F-22 lineage from adopting newer blocks and limiting it to piecemeal upgrades a la J-11B -> J-11BG which is not comparable to a J-16 even though a J-11BG is newer than early block J-16s.
The US considered the F-35 to be a better spend of funding and in the 1990s and 2000s it didn't appear they needed anything remotely close to F-22 and F-35 until 2040s and they knew they were going to have F-22/F-35 replacement generation by the 2040s at the latest anyway.
If you agree with this, that's great. The aerodynamic design of the J20 is more inclined towards supersonic speed, with a higher lift-to-drag ratio compared to the F22.
Therefore, even though the engine of the J20 is not as powerful as that of the F22, I believe that in terms of supersonic maneuverability, the disadvantage of the J20 will not be particularly significant.
Meanwhile, as a fighter aircraft from the 1990s, it lacked advanced data links, a complete situational awareness system, and outdated electronic equipment, which limited the F22's ability to fully utilize its exceptional supersonic performance.
There is no way an F-22 can detect a J-20 at a 100km but a J-20 will, thanks to its dedicated IRST. Cue the much larger and more powerful radar and you got yourselves a firing solution without the Raptor knowing much.
And the J-20A does it all even better with upgraded radar, IRST, EW and a more potent AAM (PL-16).
Just like the J-10CE sealclubbed the Rafale, so will it be for the J-20 against the F-22/F-35.
And the J-20A does it all even better with upgraded radar, IRST, EW and a more potent AAM (PL-16).
Just like the J-10CE sealclubbed the Rafale, so will it be for the J-20 against the F-22/F-35.
According to a video from another post by the same OP, at least one J-20A (WS-15) has already been painted with stealth coating.
Generally speaking, TVC offers high angle-of-attack control performance during subsonic flight and provides flight moment balance during supersonic flight.
During the internal exercises of the PLA, the Su-35 equipped with TVC performed well in terms of instantaneous and stable turning rates. However, in close combat situations, it did not demonstrate an overwhelming advantage over the J-10.
Therefore, it is possible that after the improved model with increased thrust was introduced in WS15, the J20A/S might be equipped with TVC.
In fact, I don't think the enemy's stealth fighter is the primary target for the J20.
The PLAAF believes that the most effective way to counter stealth fighter jets is distributed detection network.
Therefore, the J35 was regarded by the PLAAF as an important node in the anti-stealth network.
The J20 itself once fell into the anti-stealth trap set by the J16 aircraft fleet during a PLAAF exercise.
The main tactics of the PLAAF are to use the J20 to strike the enemy's key operational nodes, and to use a large number of J35s to form an anti-stealth network to protect their own air combat nodes.
The PLAAF believes that the most effective way to counter stealth fighter jets is distributed detection network.
Therefore, the J35 was regarded by the PLAAF as an important node in the anti-stealth network.
The J20 itself once fell into the anti-stealth trap set by the J16 aircraft fleet during a PLAAF exercise.
The main tactics of the PLAAF are to use the J20 to strike the enemy's key operational nodes, and to use a large number of J35s to form an anti-stealth network to protect their own air combat nodes.
F22 has these 2 gigantic tail fins that is sub-optimal for stealth regardless of direction, also caret type intakes are not as stealthy when viewed head-on. I would consider F22 to have better stealth when viewed from the rear and marginally worse stealth from front and the sides. Also, for kinematics, J20a with ws15 has the highest thrust-to-weight ratio on the planet, so yes, better kinematics.