J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[Tomboy]

Do we have a handle on the capability difference between WS10C+ and WS15 equipped J20A?

If WS-10C+/CXX/D is actually a highly modified WS-10(Like enlarged core, more compressor stages) instead of basically having the WS-10C burn just a tad bit hotter, theoretically speaking it could be as good as the original WS-15 design. But ngl this theory has it's holes, if WS-15 was already in LRIP since 2023 why bother to go through all this effort to build effectively a new engine if the plan was to have this engine as a stop gap for a very small amount of time until the real WS-15 production can ramp up. If true then it begs the question, how much longer is WS-15 going to get delayed by?

 

[Neurosmith]

Why is this such a big deal for people?

All we can confirm at this point, if rumors are true, is that the initial units of the J-20A will have the WS-10C. The airframe of the J-20A is such that a transition to WS-15s will be quite seamless, even with retrofits.

It's very much possible that later units will have the WS-15. Even in the worst case scenario (WS-15 having quality issues), would you rather have an interim engine or have the J-20A grounded once problems develop later on?

Relax and assess what the situation is once the J-20A is delivered in numbers.

 

[siegecrossbow]

J-36/J-50/May 7th 6:0 turned you guys into spoiled brats. Not even a little bit of bad news is acceptable WTF… Engine has traditionally been a weakness for China and this isn’t as if they can’t be retrofitted onto J-20A once things have stabilized.

 

[Tomboy]

Why is this such a big deal for people?

Ngl, it's really cause engine technology is one of the only sector where Chinese aviation industry still lags behind the west, the hope is that China will eventually catch up sometime this decade with WS-19/VCE and of course WS-15(Arguably seen as one of the biggest milestone in Chinese aeroengine development). Now that news of it comes out that WS-15 might be experiencing issues and still isn't fit for service after all these years of development is really taking the wind out of our sails tbf.

 

[Alfa_Particle]

WS-10C+/CXX/D is actually a highly modified WS-10(Like enlarged core, more compressor stages) instead of basically having the WS-10C burn just a tad bit hotter, theoretically speaking it could be as good as the original WS-15 design.

(technically it should be less stages but with improved compression so the pressure ratios are higher anyway)

 

[sunnymaxi]

Guys this is going to be lengthy post. please read this.

i have read all the messages and i can understand the anger of our valuable members like @ACuriousPLAFan @ZeEa5KPul @Tomboy and others.

first let me clear some basic points then i shall talk about WS-15 Engine..

he is the Lui Daxiang, Member of China's academy of Engineering and Father of China's Turbofan Engine industry. man has 60+ years long service in this industry. he was the biggest critics of AVIC Engine policies. and point out all the shortcomings.

''I have been dealing with aircraft engines for more than 60 years. During these 60 years, I spent half of the time in the mountains," Liu recalled''

Man appeared in China Aviation industry Conference 2022 and broke silence on many interesting things.

1. AECC fully conquered 3rd/4th Generation Aero Engines technology. and broke through the technical barrier of next gen Engine. he also present the chart to the audience.

2. by 2035 China will be the Tier1 player in Aero Engine industry.

his words are the highest authority in mainland China. nothing comes above him when it comes to gas turbine tech.

in March 2023, AECC officially announced WS-15 entered in LRIP stage. but this is interesting because this doesn't match with current state of WS-15 engine i mean we all are waiting for the full scale production. this announcement confirmed one thing, WS-15 design has frozen. it means there is no technical issue with this machine as first confirmed by Lui Daxiang then later on AECC announce..

so what is the current issue with WS-15 ?? replying below

I've been hearing good and bad news. Good news is that J-20A is going to enter service with combat units in numbers before the year is over. The bad news is that we may have another J-11B situation on our hands...

grounded is the big word. we barely have few units of J-20A with WS-15 engines. so you can say this, WS-15 production has been halted or stopped due to some problems.

when last time i was talking with my source, he was quite confident about WS-15 production will scale up this year. cute orca and Ayi too said the same thing.. but what just happened ???

there is a supply chain/components manufacturing issue with WS-15 right now. Technical bar is too high this time. you need 200+ WS-15 for enormous J-20 production. its not a cakewalk

PW/GE have global suppliers. F-135 components comes from 10 different countries.

so if WS-15 delay again, its not a big problem guys. It's very much possible that later units will have the WS-15. better to stop engine production than grounded the entire fleet later on.

Tbh, even if WS-15 do happen this year. WS-15 isn't advanced anymore, it might be considered advanced(Not even bleeding edge) when it was drawn up in the 90s but right now it's basically at the average western level of 4th generation engines. F-119 still has a higher TIT and F-135 is a distant dream. XA102/103 is supposedly going to push it even further and right now I'm doubting China's ability to keep up. Hopefully the current version of WS-15 is not based on the original spec of 1850K TIT or it truly is 遥遥落后 especially if they are still having trouble getting it into service. This of course also implicates the civilian sector, as higher TIT often means higher efficiency and from what I could find LEAP-1's TIT is around 2100K so for CJ-1000A to be atleast competitive against the LEAP-1 it'll probably need a spec similar to LEAP-1's and if they still can't even get an less advanced engine into service well you could probably think of the rest...

just relax bro.

WS-15 TIT is not 1850K.. its higher than this
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Edit - a bit delay in advanced Turbofan is absolutely a normal thing. don't you think AECC isn't working on it ?? if anyone follow my massages on this forum, WS-15 supply chain is different in comparison with WS-10/WS-20. this time AECC Shenyang went with the different set of suppliers. so scale up production of thousands of precision components is hell of a task.

100 percent agreed with @siegecrossbow . J-50/J-36 spoiled us. Not even a little bit of bad news is unacceptable here..

 

[tphuang]

I don't quite understand why people are getting this emotional over this.

hasn't it been obvious for a while that turbofan engines don't progress that quickly? Did you expect AECC to have caught up to GE already?

Just take a look at how long it took WS-20 + Y-20B to actually get introduced to the Air Force after we saw multiple of them in XAC factory satellite photo.

So calm down, J-20A should join service when it's ready and if it's ready now without WS-15, it should still enter service.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I don't quite understand why people are getting this emotional over this.

hasn't it been obvious for a while that turbofan engines don't progress that quickly? Did you expect AECC to have caught up to GE already?

Just take a look at how long it took WS-20 + Y-20B to actually get introduced to the Air Force after we saw multiple of them in XAC factory satellite photo.

So calm down, J-20A should join service when it's ready and if it's ready now without WS-15, it should still enter service.

They are acting like Chinese boomer parents now. Nothing is good enough.

If you look at the situation from a rational lens PLAAF and AVIC are tackling things from a scientific and responsible manner. There are always risks associated with inducting a new plane (which J-20A is) with a new engine. And even if there is a bit of delay it is not the end of the world. China has the design/manufacturing process down. Just be patient. Unless you have some terminal illness and won’t live till 2026 I frankly don’t see why you need to get emotional about this.

 

[ismellcopium]

Is there expected to be a significant difference in combat range between WS-10 and 15 powered J-20As? On other aspects I think WS-10 performance should already be more than adequate.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Is there expected to be a significant difference in combat range between WS-10 and 15 powered J-20As? On other aspects I think WS-10 performance should already be more than adequate.

Main issue is probably power generation/kinematics at high supersonic speeds where the J-20 design is supposed to excel at.