J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[BasilicaLew]

Most we can say about F-22 v J-20

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"In March 29 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee’s tactical aviation panel, Moore said the Block 20s are not “competitive” with the latest Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. "

I'm curious as to what this forum's opinion is about J-20's RCS compared to the F-22's. The consensus elsewhere online seem to be that while the J-20 has a smaller RCS than the su-57, it still has a (much) larger RCS than the F-22, and that the J-20's canards compromise its stealth. I know that canards compromising stealth in the general sense has been somewhat debunked, but the J-20's canards specifically do not sit in the same plane as the main wings unlike F-22's main wings and its elevators. The J-20 also has 2 smaller wings at the very back that point down.

So either it's because of the J-20 having better missiles or stealth I don't know but regardless better than Block 20's by a "not competitive" margin

 

[ismellcopium]

You are trying to compare two unknown values to each other, and not just unknown but actively suppressed by the air forces in question. The consensus of garbage is garbage. Nobody who says anything about this in the public space is credible—the opposite, in fact, as claims made about knowing the unknowable actively discredit you.

What you can say is that the two platform fulfill similar roles as air superiority VLO fighters. That's about it.

Patch once said something like J-20's signature isn't quite on the level of Blk4 F-35s but is similar to early production airframes, which I always found kind of bizarre because... that's not really an apples to apples comparison. If comparing Blk4 to J-20A, my personal, random guess would be the latter's RCS is probably slightly higher (but still within an order of magnitude), if due to nothing but larger size. But when you get into differences that small it would be outweighed by other factors like the J-20's significantly more powerful radar.
Oh, and of course there was that revised appraisal he gave later that year of the J-20 being "significantly superior" to any US aircraft F-35 included. Obviously nobody should be taking such vague individual statements as gospel, but I think the totality of evidence from everywhere is pretty clear that the J-20's RCS isn't poor to say the least.

And just to add, to my understanding lower frequency radars (eg E-2D, E-7; countless systems on PLA side) can detect and potentially even cue (claimed by both sides) against stealth aircraft, so there may not be too much point to debating exact decimal points of how tiny RCS is against higher frequencies, especially for these 5th gens. It's probably better thought of as something helpful rather than singularly decisive.

 

[FirebirdFan]

J-20 compilation from Zhuhai 2024.

 

[tphuang]

Most we can say about F-22 v J-20

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"In March 29 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee’s tactical aviation panel, Moore said the Block 20s are not “competitive” with the latest Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. "


So either it's because of the J-20 having better missiles or stealth I don't know but regardless better than Block 20's by a "not competitive" margin

The difference in electronics and electrical power generation between J-20 & F-22 is pretty large. So, the earlier blocks which had problems are just competitive even if they attempt to upgrade.

 

[Wrought]

Patch once said something like J-20's signature isn't quite on the level of Blk4 F-35s but is similar to early production airframes, which I always found kind of bizarre because... that's not really an apples to apples comparison. If comparing Blk4 to J-20A, my personal, random guess would be the latter's RCS is probably slightly higher (but still within an order of magnitude), if due to nothing but larger size. But when you get into differences that small it would be outweighed by other factors like the J-20's significantly more powerful radar.
Oh, and of course there was that revised appraisal he gave later that year of the J-20 being "significantly superior" to any US aircraft F-35 included. Obviously nobody should be taking such vague individual statements as gospel, but I think the totality of evidence from everywhere is pretty clear that the J-20's RCS isn't poor to say the least.

And just to add, to my understanding lower frequency radars (eg E-2D, E-7; countless systems on PLA side) can detect and potentially even cue (claimed by both sides) against stealth aircraft, so there may not be too much point to debating exact decimal points of how tiny RCS is against higher frequencies, especially for these 5th gens. It's probably better thought of as something helpful rather than singularly decisive.

I have great respect for Patchwork and his opinions, but the most he could possibly know is whatever estimates US intel has produced on a particular day. Nobody in the world knows the exact parameters of both aircraft (and they aren't constant values in any case).

I'm willing to accept the idea that J-20/F-22/F-35 are all operating in the same ballpark of VLO, but anything more specific than that is inherently questionable. That doesn't mean he's ignorant or mistaken, far from it, just that he's making generalizations he probably shouldn't.

 

[Maikeru]

Another data point. USAF uses early block F35 to simulate J20s at Nellis.

 

[ismellcopium]

Another data point. USAF uses early block F35 to simulate J20s at Nellis.

Which like I was saying is an entirely reasonable equivalence, but those early F-35s are very likely no longer representative of the latest "base" model J-20s rolling off CAC let alone J-20A. It's probably reasonable to expect J-20 signature enhancements over its history to parallel Lockmart's (if not even larger due to greater relative change/progress in Chinese industry in recent years), ie early to current production F-35, then J-20A at least as much of a step up as Blk4 is. I'd say this is another instance of Chinese secrecy and lack of visible MIC marketing (in contrast to LM naming different blocks and such) tending to produce an underestimation of these kinds of changes over time, where we only rarely get very subtle glimpses of it like J-20 pilots saying "a lot has changed under the hood".

 

[FirebirdFan]

Most we can say about F-22 v J-20

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"In March 29 testimony before the House Armed Services Committee’s tactical aviation panel, Moore said the Block 20s are not “competitive” with the latest Chinese J-20 stealth fighters. "


So either it's because of the J-20 having better missiles or stealth I don't know but regardless better than Block 20's by a "not competitive" margin

Remember block 20 F-22s were not yet carrying AIM-120D and AIM-9X and had limited or no Link-16 capability so that alone puts even the earliest J-20s ahead of it.

 

[BasilicaLew]

He is saying they are not competitive even with upgrades

The difference in electronics and electrical power generation between J-20 & F-22 is pretty large. So, the earlier blocks which had problems are just competitive even if they attempt to upgrade.

 

[zyklon]

The difference in electronics and electrical power generation between J-20 & F-22 is pretty large. So, the earlier blocks which had problems are just competitive even if they attempt to upgrade.

When comparing the F-22 with the J-20, a lot of folks -- however well intentioned and free of bias -- tend to forget that the former has been out of production for over a decade with fewer than 200 examples manufactured, while the latter is not only currently in production, but the subject of ongoing and significant refinement efforts by CAC.

As such, no one should be surprised or ashamed that the latest iterations of the J-20 can meet or surpass the F-22, especially block 20 Raptors, in significant ways, if not overall capabilities.

Moreover, people have been trying to compare the J-20's RCS with the F-22's RCS since at least 2011, and IMHO, it's a dead horse that folks really just ought to stop beating on, especially when there are more salient attributes in play and worth considering.

To add to the point that @tphuang seems to be making: a more productive comparison between the J-20 and F-22 would probably entail analyzing their respective sensor packages, especially say their EOTS* or lack thereof (rather than publicly unavailable RCS data).

* I know there's been some debate as to whether the J-20's EOTS is really an EOTS or something significantly more and deserving of a new acronym, but not caught up on that. So happy to defer the precise nomenclature to someone more informed.