J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[tphuang]

He is saying they are not competitive even with upgrades

well, how much can you upgrade with an ancient platform like F-22? After all, the thermal management system is only designed to handle so much cooling. It can't utilize a modern GaN radar.

When comparing the F-22 with the J-20, a lot of folks -- however well intentioned and free of bias -- tend to forget that the former has been out of production for over a decade with fewer than 200 examples manufactured, while the latter is not only currently in production, but the subject of ongoing and significant refinement efforts by CAC.

As such, no one should be surprised or ashamed that the latest iterations of the J-20 can meet or surpass the F-22, especially block 20 Raptors, in significant ways, if not overall capabilities.

Moreover, people have been trying to compare the J-20's RCS with the F-22's RCS since at least 2011, and IMHO, it's a dead horse that folks really just ought to stop beating on, especially when there are more salient attributes in play and worth considering.

To add to the point that @tphuang seems to be making: a more productive comparison between the J-20 and F-22 would probably entail analyzing their respective sensor packages, especially say their EOTS* or lack thereof (rather than publicly unavailable RCS data).

* I know there's been some debate as to whether the J-20's EOTS is really an EOTS or something significantly more and deserving of a new acronym, but not caught up on that. So happy to defer the precise nomenclature to someone more informed.

I'm just saying that advancement in sensor technology is moving much faster than advancement in propulsion and material science.

And advancement in material science for CFRP and meta materials is moving faster than stealth shaping.
None of which is good for an awesome legacy aircraft.

So yeah, J-20 is still getting better. J-20A and J-20S are both huge improvements over J-20. I don't know why people still hold on to the idea that F-22 is the golden standard. Sure, it might have better power, maneuverability than J-20 and better stealth characteristics, but power generation and AI matter a great deal going forward. And F-22 is 90s technology.

 

[iBBz]

well, how much can you upgrade with an ancient platform like F-22? After all, the thermal management system is only designed to handle so much cooling. It can't utilize a modern GaN radar.

I'm just saying that advancement in sensor technology is moving much faster than advancement in propulsion and material science.

And advancement in material science for CFRP and meta materials is moving faster than stealth shaping.
None of which is good for an awesome legacy aircraft.

So yeah, J-20 is still getting better. J-20A and J-20S are both huge improvements over J-20. I don't know why people still hold on to the idea that F-22 is the golden standard. Sure, it might have better power, maneuverability than J-20 and better stealth characteristics, but power generation and AI matter a great deal going forward. And F-22 is 90s technology.

I guess people do consider it to be better exactly because of the higher thrust, better maneuverability, and lower RCS part that you mentioned. Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all, and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day. If China can't match the F119, why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields? We should not. We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15, and now we have to suffer through another 15 years of variable cycle engines coming soon. We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine and upcoming engines, all of which we know are better than the F-22's, and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine, but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20. The only reason the J-20 is getting better, is because it isn't even old enough to become a mature platform. It doesn't even have it's intended engine, yet.

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually, so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

 

[tphuang]

I guess people do consider it to be better exactly because of the higher thrust, better maneuverability, and lower RCS part that you mentioned. Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all, and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day. If China can't match the F119, why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields? We should not. We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15, and now we have to suffer through another 15 years of variable cycle engines coming soon. We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine and upcoming engines, all of which we know are better than the F-22's, and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine, but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20. The only reason the J-20 is getting better, is because it isn't even old enough to become a mature platform. It doesn't even have it's intended engine, yet.

WS-10C's latest versions deliver about as much thrust as F-119. I'm not really sure what you are talking about with WS-15 since it is clearly flying on J-20A. It made a lot of sense to develop it for new J-20 variant rather than replacing the existing ones with it.

Why is J-20 not a mature platform? It joined service 18 months after F-35A. And its production rate is higher than F-35A at the moment. Would you consider F-35 to not be a mature platform?

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

The most they can upgrade F-35 to is 60 to 80 kW due to interior space. F-22 probably can't upgrade TMS to that because it was never designed with this level of expansion to begin with.
The issue running into F-35 is pretty well known

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This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually, so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

Well, in RF tech, more power that you send out and more processing of data coming back and sensor fusion is better.

If you think you can get the same quality of radar performance and EW with half the power going out, then you are clearly not reading enough on the topic.

RF as a field is moving really fast.

You know, APG-77 and APG-81 use GaA as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers on your phone uses.

The Chinese radar and EW systems use GaN as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers in orbital satellite systems and 5G base station use.

Now, do you think the RF signals going out from your phone is stronger or from the 5G base station is stronger?

 

[iBBz]

WS-10C's latest versions deliver about as much thrust as F-119. I'm not really sure what you are talking about with WS-15 since it is clearly flying on J-20A. It made a lot of sense to develop it for new J-20 variant rather than replacing the existing ones with it.

The most they can upgrade F-35 to is 60 to 80 kW due to interior space. F-22 probably can't upgrade TMS to that because it was never designed with this level of expansion to begin with.
The issue running into F-35 is pretty well known

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I'll believe that when I see a spec sheet and photo/video evidence of the J-20A in service painted, numbered, and produced in numbers.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment. We've seen other aircraft take this route in order to make way for upgrades, such as the Mig-35 and the flanker series. You just made this example with the new airframe of the J-20A, so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.

Why is J-20 not a mature platform? It joined service 18 months after F-35A. And its production rate is higher than F-35A at the moment. Would you consider F-35 to not be a mature platform?

The J-20 entered service with the AL-31F and a non-serrated nozzle, a far cry from a 5th generation fighter. Neither are mature, but the F135 is a mature engine and more official info about it and the F-35 is released. You can find it's spec sheets on even Lockheed's website. If you search for the J-20 specs, each website will contradict the one before it.

Well, in RF tech, more power that you send out and more processing of data coming back and sensor fusion is better.

If you think you can get the same quality of radar performance and EW with half the power going out, then you are clearly not reading enough on the topic.

RF as a field is moving really fast.

You know, APG-77 and APG-81 use GaA as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers on your phone uses.

The Chinese radar and EW systems use GaN as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers in orbital satellite systems and 5G base station use.

Now, do you think the RF signals going out from your phone is stronger or from the 5G base station is stronger?

No one is saying the field isn't moving forward fast or that China is moving slowly, but your statements indirectly imply that the US is not moving forward, which I find very problematic, lacks objectivity, and cannot be backed up with real tangible evidence since we have very little info released by China's MIC regarding their product.

 

[bebops]

I'll believe that when I see a spec sheet and photo/video evidence of the J-20A in service painted, numbered, and produced in numbers.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment. We've seen other aircraft take this route in order to make way for upgrades, such as the Mig-35 and the flanker series. You just made this example with the new airframe of the J-20A, so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.



The J-20 entered service with the AL-31F and a non-serrated nozzle, a far cry from a 5th generation fighter. Neither are mature, but the F135 is a mature engine and more official info about it and the F-35 is released. You can find it's spec sheets on even Lockheed's website. If you search for the J-20 specs, each website will contradict the one before it.



No one is saying the field isn't moving forward fast or that China is moving slowly, but your statements indirectly imply that the US is not moving forward, which I find very problematic, lacks objectivity, and cannot be backed up with real tangible evidence since we have very little info released by China's MIC regarding their product.

China's 5th plane engine will soon be mass produced. They are doing flight testings with it. It is not like they are still at the beginning or middle stage. The stage they are at right now is 4.5 out of 5. When it hits 5, it means they are going to mass produce it.

In general, the technology gap is closing rapidly with some areas better than US.. If you think about 20 years ago, China has nothing.. Probably not even a 5th gen frame.

The only real advantage that U.S has is their submarine. As far as the warships and planes goes, China is leading or at par with the U.S
Same thing as saying U.S used to be leading in most categories, fast forward to today, it only leads in a few categories.. The U.S should be a little worry after looking at this trend.

 

[Rag Shiba]

What’s with all these chest thumping post I’ve been seen lately? Bit out of character or SDF.

 

[Biscuits]

I guess people do consider it to be better exactly because of the higher thrust, better maneuverability, and lower RCS part that you mentioned. Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all, and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day. If China can't match the F119,

WS-10C

why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields? We should not. We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15,

Okay it's not everyone else's fault you were sleeping for the last 5 years.

and now we have to suffer through another 15 years of variable cycle engines coming soon. We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine and upcoming engines, all of which we know are better than the F-22's, and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine,

And so is China if we just base on word of mouth like with US.

but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20.

I don't even understand what you're saying here, that J-35 can't use the IP from CAC on its own aircraft? CAC doesn't make the avionics, engines etc. They are like Apple making IPhone, they just put together the components.

The only reason the J-20 is getting better, is because it isn't even old enough to become a mature platform. It doesn't even have it's intended engine, yet.

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

Which doesn't exist outside of power points and if we're being generous, as you say "university studies and research papers".

I'll believe NGAD just like when I believed WS-15 - when I see it flying.

This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

"we" or at least "I" just stick to objective findings and don't make broad assumptions such as "China is defintely ahead" or "US is defintely ahead" if it can't be backed up by data.

We cannot say either at the moment, only quote known aircraft specs and numbers, which show US has more numerous 5th gen aircraft and more numerous F135/WS-15 tier engine production, but China has more variants, more next gen projects and a lead in some avionics.

That is imho arrogant and fanboy to say either side is defintely ahead.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field

Vibes isn't data.

and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually,

So has China, likely more so, J-20s are really expensive and they're still making 110~ a year. And that's not the only thing China is funding atm.

so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

China has 3 though, J-35, J-20 and J-20s. That's a shit ton of time and institutional knowledge, to the point they are quite ready to go next gen as obviously seen.

What’s with all these chest thumping post I’ve been seen lately? Bit out of character or SDF.

Coping Americans cosplaying

 

[iBBz]

I don't even understand what you're saying here, that J-35 can't use the IP from CAC on its own aircraft? CAC doesn't make the avionics, engines etc. They are like Apple making IPhone, they just put together the components.

That's just a typo. I meant the J-20, not the J-35. Not replying to the rest since you disregarded much of what I said in my previous posts and veered off-subject.

 

[CannedFish]

That's just a typo. I meant the J-20, not the J-35. Not replying to the rest since you disregarded much of what I said in my previous posts and veered off-subject.

He disregarded much of what you've said, because they are to be disregarded.

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment. We've seen other aircraft take this route in order to make way for upgrades, such as the Mig-35 and the flanker series. You just made this example with the new airframe of the J-20A, so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

Then why didn't they?
An Aeronautics engineer would sell their parents immediately if it gave them the ability to add a few inches to a fighter, especially a 5th gen. Remember that just retrofitting the F-16s with DSI is already too expensive for the DoD. Did you forget they US Thanos snapped the F-22 production line? There's no new F-22, no matter what cope you believe.

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.

Then where is the new airframe? I'll believe it when I see it. If they could, why didn't they?

This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually, so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

Great now we have come full circle. "Newer ain't mean it's better", to:

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.

"It's Newer so it must better". Lmao. Last time I checked, the DoD wants something cheaper than the F-35 for its new jet, Oops.

No one is saying the field isn't moving forward fast or that China is moving slowly, but your statements indirectly imply that the US is not moving forward, which I find very problematic, lacks objectivity, and cannot be backed up with real tangible evidence since we have very little info released by China's MIC regarding their product.

They are, the F135 is just an enlarged F119, with shit supersonic curves no less. Forgot they retrofitted a naval anti-ship into an AA missile? They recently said they'd add a pod to the F-35 for CCA. A POD.

We don't need to know shit about China's MIC products? That's the PLAs high command's job, and they wouldn't be pumping out all they're pumping out if they think it ain't worth it.
All the while, the US hasn't even shown it's NGAD or F/A-XX yet, while China has two out in public.

And just for the record, little info released is why SDF exists, they're multiple threads on this shit already. Don't complain about your points being disregarded, if you so readily disregard a decade's worth of Osinting, that's the literal point of this forum.

Edit: Being weary and not underestimating the US is good and all, but if you give them crazy voodoo capabilities, then what's the point? Britain used to be the première Naval power, now look at them.
Keeping the waters muddy is China's modus operadi, it benefits them as the rising power. For the US backing up their strong man image is their job not yours, they've got an empire of vassals to keep in line, and they've done a poor job at it.

 

[Alfa_Particle]

I guess people do consider it to be better

People, as in whom? The rather ill-informed general laymen (or even professionals at that, unbelievable) and/or Reddit 'experts'?

exactly because of the higher thrust,

Well, soon to be false. And by that I mean as early as this quarter. Plus the WS-10C is only a few kN off anyway. The J-20 (not even A) still has a higher T/W regardless.

better maneuverability

Only subsonically at most, and with WS-15 I expect the J-20A to be just as maneuverable as the Raptor at any point of its flight envelope, if not more (especially during supersonic flight regimes).

and lower RCS part that you mentioned.

I think he meant it in a worst-case-scenario manner. In reality, the J-20 is most likely as stealthy head-on, if not more.

Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all

Technology evolves at a blinding rate. You NEED constant tech refreshes between batches to ensure the birds you're pumping out are actually competitive. And unfortunately, the Raptors production run stopped more than a decade ago without MLUs (as of now) for the existing units. I don't think even the last blocks incorporated the then (early 10s) state-of-the-art technology, or at a significant scope. Let's see, any competitive features that the J-20 already have?

GaN AESA? Nope. Integrated passive IR suite? Also nope. HMD/EODAS suite? Nah.

and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day.

Guess what's in LRIP and soon to be in FRP as early as this quarter?

China can already match the F119. The problem since 2023 was smoothing out the supply chain and making sure it doesn't spontaneously blows up mid-flight. Which, the bar is on the floor since the F119's supply chain is, well, nonexistent.

why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields?

Uh, we don't. The assumption is done with supporting observations, such as China's competitiveness of even near-domination in civilian sectors.

Besides, it's not exactly news that Chinese MIC is growing at a considerablely faster rate than the US MIC.

We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15

Considering we've had clear imagery of said engine, thrust goals, and etc., it's not exactly mystical. That would be the WS-17 which vanished off the face of God's green Earth or even WS-19 which we have absolutely no idea what it (the nozzle) looks like yet.

We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine

Which all is within the capabilities of the Chinese's technology sector. In fact, they hold an advantage over the US in certain fields with GaN AESAs being a shining example.

and upcoming engines,

FYI, the F-35 branch of the AETP program was scrapped. We're seeing F135 variants at most.

and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine,

We also know that the same applies for China. They finished testing with an ACE tech demonstrator since 2019.

but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20.

Calling them "university studies" is quite undermining or even borderline insulting, if I may.

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

They want to, trust me. The problem is that it wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, but your entire body plus your family's. Even if you can scrape up that much money, by the time the fleet overhaul is complete, NGAD would be in service. Hence, they're stuck with a suboptimal MLU with pods (lmao).

I'm not quite sure how the fact that USAF favours a newer platform help your point though. NGAD is in a predicament, to say the least.

This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector,

I'm not quite sure if you understand how progression of technology works, and the staggering rate of which. Yes, newer is indeed likely to be better if you're dealing with China. Who's the top country in terms of high tech R&D? China. Who's the top manufacturing country? China. You're the one belittling their efforts here.

and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal

Here you are, clamoring for objectivity when much of your points are vibe and feelings and/or neglecting China's quite clear progress. Being overly pragmatic/conservative is not objectivity. Be for real.

Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Tell that to the F-22's GaAs radar.

and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually

...with much of it wasted, yeah. What's that? $1677 USD coffee maker? $640 toilet seats? They better come gold plated with platinum lining and highlights.

so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

I think you're the one belittling CAC's efforts here.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment.

I'll believe that when I see news from LM or DoD reports. They're most likely gonna be related to cost overruns though.

so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

Refer to how they chose pods in the F-22's MLU - i.e. money, which a significant chunk will most likely be spent on cookies with gold flakes for the top brass' morning tea instead. You've said it yourself: US MIC is incredibly inefficient now.

The J-20 entered service with the AL-31F and a non-serrated nozzle, a far cry from a 5th generation fighter.

That was literally one singular batch which amounted to a grand total of one brigade. A far cry? I think not. Just suboptimal and long resolved.

You can find it's spec sheets on even Lockheed's website.

Said "spec sheet" (actually on the P&W site instead) contains:
- approximate max wet thrust
- weight
- dimensions

Quite low standards for a spec sheet. An actual one would contain actual data such as:
- exact mil power
- exact AB power
- thrust curves
- etc.

Which neither P&W or Shenyang would provide you.

An Aeronautics engineer would sell their parents immediately if it gave them the ability to add a few inches to a fighter, especially a 5th gen.

Accurate lol.