J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[tphuang]

He is saying they are not competitive even with upgrades

well, how much can you upgrade with an ancient platform like F-22? After all, the thermal management system is only designed to handle so much cooling. It can't utilize a modern GaN radar.

When comparing the F-22 with the J-20, a lot of folks -- however well intentioned and free of bias -- tend to forget that the former has been out of production for over a decade with fewer than 200 examples manufactured, while the latter is not only currently in production, but the subject of ongoing and significant refinement efforts by CAC.

As such, no one should be surprised or ashamed that the latest iterations of the J-20 can meet or surpass the F-22, especially block 20 Raptors, in significant ways, if not overall capabilities.

Moreover, people have been trying to compare the J-20's RCS with the F-22's RCS since at least 2011, and IMHO, it's a dead horse that folks really just ought to stop beating on, especially when there are more salient attributes in play and worth considering.

To add to the point that @tphuang seems to be making: a more productive comparison between the J-20 and F-22 would probably entail analyzing their respective sensor packages, especially say their EOTS* or lack thereof (rather than publicly unavailable RCS data).

* I know there's been some debate as to whether the J-20's EOTS is really an EOTS or something significantly more and deserving of a new acronym, but not caught up on that. So happy to defer the precise nomenclature to someone more informed.

I'm just saying that advancement in sensor technology is moving much faster than advancement in propulsion and material science.

And advancement in material science for CFRP and meta materials is moving faster than stealth shaping.
None of which is good for an awesome legacy aircraft.

So yeah, J-20 is still getting better. J-20A and J-20S are both huge improvements over J-20. I don't know why people still hold on to the idea that F-22 is the golden standard. Sure, it might have better power, maneuverability than J-20 and better stealth characteristics, but power generation and AI matter a great deal going forward. And F-22 is 90s technology.

 

[iBBz]

well, how much can you upgrade with an ancient platform like F-22? After all, the thermal management system is only designed to handle so much cooling. It can't utilize a modern GaN radar.

I'm just saying that advancement in sensor technology is moving much faster than advancement in propulsion and material science.

And advancement in material science for CFRP and meta materials is moving faster than stealth shaping.
None of which is good for an awesome legacy aircraft.

So yeah, J-20 is still getting better. J-20A and J-20S are both huge improvements over J-20. I don't know why people still hold on to the idea that F-22 is the golden standard. Sure, it might have better power, maneuverability than J-20 and better stealth characteristics, but power generation and AI matter a great deal going forward. And F-22 is 90s technology.

I guess people do consider it to be better exactly because of the higher thrust, better maneuverability, and lower RCS part that you mentioned. Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all, and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day. If China can't match the F119, why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields? We should not. We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15, and now we have to suffer through another 15 years of variable cycle engines coming soon. We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine and upcoming engines, all of which we know are better than the F-22's, and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine, but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20. The only reason the J-20 is getting better, is because it isn't even old enough to become a mature platform. It doesn't even have it's intended engine, yet.

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually, so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

 

[tphuang]

I guess people do consider it to be better exactly because of the higher thrust, better maneuverability, and lower RCS part that you mentioned. Also it's production ended in 2011, so not 90s tech and it's not ancient at all, and when it entered service, it had a better engine that China still can't match to this day. If China can't match the F119, why should we automatically assume it has surpassed the US MIC in other fields? We should not. We constantly hear about the mystical WS-15, and now we have to suffer through another 15 years of variable cycle engines coming soon. We have tons of info available about the sensor features and advancements of the F-35 and it's incredible F135 engine and upcoming engines, all of which we know are better than the F-22's, and we know the US is already testing an ACE engine, but we have nothing available on the J-35 other than university studies and research papers that we may or may not be able to link to the technology onboard the J-20. The only reason the J-20 is getting better, is because it isn't even old enough to become a mature platform. It doesn't even have it's intended engine, yet.

WS-10C's latest versions deliver about as much thrust as F-119. I'm not really sure what you are talking about with WS-15 since it is clearly flying on J-20A. It made a lot of sense to develop it for new J-20 variant rather than replacing the existing ones with it.

Why is J-20 not a mature platform? It joined service 18 months after F-35A. And its production rate is higher than F-35A at the moment. Would you consider F-35 to not be a mature platform?

Look at the actually ancient B-52 still getting upgraded to this day with new subsystems, including a brand new engine. The US could move F-35 subsystems, including the thermal management system, to the F-22 if they really wanted. They are likely forgoing that in favour of an entirely new system.

The most they can upgrade F-35 to is 60 to 80 kW due to interior space. F-22 probably can't upgrade TMS to that because it was never designed with this level of expansion to begin with.
The issue running into F-35 is pretty well known

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This concept of "It is newer so it must be better" that constantly gets parroted on this forum actually belittles China's efforts to become competitive with the US in the military sector, and it defeats objectivity and enables fanboyism to thrive on a forum where staying objective is pivotal. Sure, China is catching up to the inefficient US MIC, but we aren't there just yet.

Moral of the story, the US has significantly more accumulated knowledge and experience in this field and still pumps billions of dollars into it, annually, so it is a bit of a stretch to assume China has swooped in and taken the lead with the first LO aircraft it produced.

Well, in RF tech, more power that you send out and more processing of data coming back and sensor fusion is better.

If you think you can get the same quality of radar performance and EW with half the power going out, then you are clearly not reading enough on the topic.

RF as a field is moving really fast.

You know, APG-77 and APG-81 use GaA as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers on your phone uses.

The Chinese radar and EW systems use GaN as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers in orbital satellite systems and 5G base station use.

Now, do you think the RF signals going out from your phone is stronger or from the 5G base station is stronger?

 

[iBBz]

WS-10C's latest versions deliver about as much thrust as F-119. I'm not really sure what you are talking about with WS-15 since it is clearly flying on J-20A. It made a lot of sense to develop it for new J-20 variant rather than replacing the existing ones with it.

The most they can upgrade F-35 to is 60 to 80 kW due to interior space. F-22 probably can't upgrade TMS to that because it was never designed with this level of expansion to begin with.
The issue running into F-35 is pretty well known

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I'll believe that when I see a spec sheet and photo/video evidence of the J-20A in service painted, numbered, and produced in numbers.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment. We've seen other aircraft take this route in order to make way for upgrades, such as the Mig-35 and the flanker series. You just made this example with the new airframe of the J-20A, so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.

Why is J-20 not a mature platform? It joined service 18 months after F-35A. And its production rate is higher than F-35A at the moment. Would you consider F-35 to not be a mature platform?

The J-20 entered service with the AL-31F and a non-serrated nozzle, a far cry from a 5th generation fighter. Neither are mature, but the F135 is a mature engine and more official info about it and the F-35 is released. You can find it's spec sheets on even Lockheed's website. If you search for the J-20 specs, each website will contradict the one before it.

Well, in RF tech, more power that you send out and more processing of data coming back and sensor fusion is better.

If you think you can get the same quality of radar performance and EW with half the power going out, then you are clearly not reading enough on the topic.

RF as a field is moving really fast.

You know, APG-77 and APG-81 use GaA as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers on your phone uses.

The Chinese radar and EW systems use GaN as TR modules. That's what Power amplifiers in orbital satellite systems and 5G base station use.

Now, do you think the RF signals going out from your phone is stronger or from the 5G base station is stronger?

No one is saying the field isn't moving forward fast or that China is moving slowly, but your statements indirectly imply that the US is not moving forward, which I find very problematic, lacks objectivity, and cannot be backed up with real tangible evidence since we have very little info released by China's MIC regarding their product.

 

[bebops]

I'll believe that when I see a spec sheet and photo/video evidence of the J-20A in service painted, numbered, and produced in numbers.

Lockheed could redesign the airframe to make space for this equipment. We've seen other aircraft take this route in order to make way for upgrades, such as the Mig-35 and the flanker series. You just made this example with the new airframe of the J-20A, so why can't you apply the same principle to the F-22?

As I explained before, they likely decided a new aircraft is the right direction to take. All these subsystems of the F-35 are begging for a larger twin engine airframe to set them free.



The J-20 entered service with the AL-31F and a non-serrated nozzle, a far cry from a 5th generation fighter. Neither are mature, but the F135 is a mature engine and more official info about it and the F-35 is released. You can find it's spec sheets on even Lockheed's website. If you search for the J-20 specs, each website will contradict the one before it.



No one is saying the field isn't moving forward fast or that China is moving slowly, but your statements indirectly imply that the US is not moving forward, which I find very problematic, lacks objectivity, and cannot be backed up with real tangible evidence since we have very little info released by China's MIC regarding their product.

China's 5th plane engine will soon be mass produced. They are doing flight testings with it. It is not like they are still at the beginning or middle stage. The stage they are at right now is 4.5 out of 5. When it hits 5, it means they are going to mass produce it.

In general, the technology gap is closing rapidly with some areas better than US.. If you think about 20 years ago, China has nothing.. Probably not even a 5th gen frame.

The only real advantage that U.S has is their submarine. As far as the warships and planes goes, China is leading or at par with the U.S
Same thing as saying U.S used to be leading in most categories, fast forward to today, it only leads in a few categories.. The U.S should be a little worry after looking at this trend.