J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Every time this topic comes up -- i.e.: how much of the US military's overall global force can be allocated to the western pacific -- it always gets a bit simplified.

Not sure where this post should go, but it's a response to this post so I'll put it here for now.

The problem is no longer as complex as it seemed 5-6 years ago mostly because the rapid modernisation programs that were declared by everyone prety much only happened in.. China. In just a few years the "difficult to predict" situation has become fairly manageable.

Here are some simplifying factors:

WestPac conflict is for US by default an Indo-Pac conflict so European/Atlantic forces are moved to ME/Indian theatre. This is why USAF merged European and African commands. This means that at no point ME will be left completely without US presence, simply because US will be exploiting this theatre both militarily and economically in any WestPac conflict, and also trying to push India into war with China.

European allies can be ignored because European NATO will be hard-pressed to fill the gap left by USAF, especially considering how much of the logistical burden for NATO was carried by USAF. They will be completely exhausted by Russia and Med - factors that were only hypotheticals before 2022. Any involvement in WestPac conflict will be purely symbolic and likely be limited to filling the gap left by US forces in the US as they are transferred elsewhere. This is primarily caused by logistical limitations so it doesn't matter what kind of political stance European countries take. Even if they want to fight with the US they won't be able to.

Canada can be ignored because at present they don't have an air force capable of regular combat.

WestPac allies that can be reliably included for the purpose of establishing a maximum force level are:
  • Australia - current: 72 F-35A + 24 SuperHornets (up to 100 F-35A total)
  • Japan - current: 36 F-35A/B + 88 F-2A/B + 200 F-15J/DJ (up to 142 F-35A/B total)
  • Korea - current: 40 F-35A + 167 KF-16C/D + 59 F-15K + irrelevant/legacy (up to 60 F-35A total)
  • Taiwan - irrelevant due to proximity
If you look at technical details of F-15K, KF-16 and the delays and problems with F-15J upgrade it becomes obvious that F-35s would be the only relevant contribution and that is still in the process of delivery and training.

This means that in practical terms US is fighting this one alone.

US has three air forces operating independently in logistical terms:
  • USAF operating from land bases
  • USN (incl. USMC VMAF squadrons in CAWs) operating from carriers
  • USMC squadrons operating from land bases
USAF has the following structure and forces (Almanac 2024):

USAF commands 2024.jpg
Compare those numbers to what we estimate of PLAAF and it doesn't look nearly as bad as in 2018-2020.

USN has up to 11 CAWs (currently 9 with 2 CVNs in refuel/overhaul ) each with either 4 SuperHornet squadrons or 3 SuperHornet squadrons and 1 F-35C squadron. Each CAW has also 1 squadron of Growlers. Each squadron is 10-12 aircraft. That puts active force at up to 110 F-35C and 330 F/A-18E/F. Total number of SuperHornet airframes in service is up to 550 of which over 120 are conversion trainers. Total number of F-35C ordered is 340 but manpower and budget issues mean 2/3 of that number will be in reserve. Currently USN has little over 30 F-35C.

USN currently has 5 CVNs in the Pacific (1 in Japan, 4 in CONUS) and 4 CVNs in the Atlantic. Nominally it's 6 and 5. They can't be deployed 100% freely because they are part of CSG which fulfill also escort and sea control roles e.g. protecting SLOC against submarines etc.

USMC has a total order of 353 F-35B (and 67 F-35C but they are opearting as part of USN). Currently it's over 150 F-35B/C and the rest are legacy Hornets. USMC also reduced size of its squadrons to 10 aircraft per sqn which at current structure (16 sqn iirc) will mean 50% of ordered F-35B will be in reserve.

Lockheed declared in March 2024 that "more than 990" F-35s had been delivered to all customers while totals for 2023 sum to ~720 aircraft. With ~150 built during 2023 and early 2024 it must mean that about 120 aircraft has been physically "ready for delivery" but had not been formally delivered, possibly due to delays with software and hardware versions. At ~150 airframes annually USAF is receiving ~60 to 70 maximum over the next decade. That's a lot in the long term, but not something that can't be matched by the current production rate of J-20.

Also note the numbers of AWACS and ISR planes. USAF is trying to acquire the 26 E-7s ASAP because they are left with completely obsolete E-3s. Aerial refueling is the only area where PLA is still lagging.

I recommend looking up the Almanac because it lists budget data which allows for creating trendlines. One such important trendline is how much money is going into Operations and Maintenance and Personnel and Training. If you look at the stats for the several years before it shows USAF clearly lagging beyond its own aims and then requiring additional funding due to Russian invasion of Ukraine which involves primarily USAF and not USN or USMC. This means that additional funds were not used to augment readiness, training or modernisation for WestPac. And costs of other programs including strategic priorities like Sentinel are only growing - current estimate is 160 billion.

The overall dynamic of air force modernisation between US and China since 2018 or so (which is when I started paying attention more closely) is that US was failing to meet its own time schedule and training quota while China was significantly exceeding its presumptive time schedule. At this point I think we've reached a tentative equilibrium for the near term provided PLA solved its training issues.

And I think PLA sees this as well which is why they are pushing for higher rates of J-20 production even without WS-15 as well as continue J-16. It's a safe solution that proved to be resilient and scalable which is why China is the only country that not only met its modernisation requirements but likely exceeded them (those we know of).

Circa 2020 US recognised it needed an overmatch to get involved vs China by late 2020s and due to what happened in the last 5 years (2019-2024) they no longer have the ability to develop that overmatch unless the entire modernisation of PLAAF that we've seen was an elaborate deception.
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
Only weapon pylon with no missile.
I see.. I just cant help myself speculating 4x PL-17 based on the old pictures with 4 droptanks.

pnr3BKB.png
 

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
Seems counterproductive to put big external missiles on a VLO platform. That's what the J-16 is for.

That assume J-20S wont take its role. I would think that Chinese air force would be what USAF were to be with 750 F-22's. The J-20 will be the only high end aircraft serving the PLAAF, lower one being the J-10 and some miscellaneous aircraft like J-16D which serve as standoff-or Escort screening jammer.
 

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
I believe that if PLAAF wants a fighter that serves as a missile truck via external pylons, they will continue to use existing platforms such as J-16, rather than replace them with J-20S.
It doesn't make much sense to make the "upgrade" to a stealth fighter if the stealth fighter's primary advantage (stealth) is completedly negated by the massive missiles you stick on the external pylons.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Also according to
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on Twitter, there should be another air brigade with J-20 not shown in this infographic by Janes (the 55th)?

Besides, Janes has awfully missed the long-established memo that the J-20A is actually the variant raised rear canopy hump with WS-15s (which is likely still in its final testing stages, if not entering LRIP), not the J-20 with WS-10Cs and no raised rear canopy hump (which has been in active service since 2016).

I haven't been particularly impressed by Jane's PLA reporting for a long time to be honest.
I'm interested in your review of their "assessment" of numbers.

Jane's has missed so much and me too, I am disappointed but ... and in fact that was one of the reasons for me to quit since they have a very special own way of taking something for "confirmed". I remember back then when the WZ-7 was seen for the first time with a serial number and I wrote in my report that it is assigned to the 16th Air Division, 48th Air Regiment since it carries a 21x7x serial numbers.
They replied, I could not be sure even more since there is no 48th AR active according to their own data-base ... my reply, that's in fact the news about it since 21x7x confirms the 48th as re-established was again turned down since they could use only something as confirmed when it fits their database. o_O


Anyway, I spoke to the Satellite imagery guy working for Jane's and he explained me that in contrast to me, who uses a combination of factors to calculate such numbers, they just take the highest number of aircraft spotted at a certain time on a certain base.

So in case for the 4th AB at Foshan, they maybe count only 6 since only 6 are visible, whereas I look the the serial numbers and see the highest one confirmed for the 4th AB is 61252 aka 22, so per my calculation, Foshan has already at least 22 J-20.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
What are the known capabilities and the bombs/missiles J-20 can use in ground/sea strike roles? Given the shallowness of the internal weapons bay compared to F-35, it is unlikely to have much multirole capability if any at all.
There Su-57m comes to mind. Due to separated engines, it has the largest internal weapons bay of any fighter and can carry stealthy cruise missiles with significant range. That is quite a handy capability in a war in the west pacific. So would it make sense to procure at least one air brigade worth of Su-57m? It also makes it possible that in a Pacific war, Russian factories can produce and send China Su-57m without the risk of getting bombed that Chinese factories have and having the pilots/infrastructure already at place can come quite handy.
So what do you guys think? Is it a good idea or is there a plan like that in place to procure Su-57m for deep strike missions already?
I think the odds of PLAAF or PLAN acquiring SU 57 Felon for LR interdiction or strike is about the same odds as RuAF acquiring F22s for patrolling the air defence district of Moscow.
 
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