J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

[no_name]

You'd be better off to use something like this do deal with drones/cruise missiles, yes?



See those 8 little missiles? Enough to get the job done but not prohibitively expensive to be used against such targets? And small missiles is better than mounting a small gun for smaller unmanned platforms with more severe space and weight constraints.

In fact if J-20 is designed to be paired with loyal wingman, then maybe this is a part of what it can be used for, to be send off to chase after lower-value targets of opportunity.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Haven’t we just seen F-15’s shooting down many dozens of drones during operation True Promise? Surely they used guns.

Apart from what @siegecrossbow and @Untoldpain have stated - The F-15 is more of a special case than being the norm, with the air-superiority variant having 900+ rounds. But even with that amount of rounds, all of those will be exhausted in within 10 seconds.

Besides, the Israeli Air Force operates 66 F-15s and 175 F-16s - Discounting the F-35Is, that's a grand total of 241 gun-equipped fighters. Don't tell me you seriously believe that only one or few F-15s are doing the interception job against those many dozens of drones? Did all the Israeli SAMs and allied forces just decide to take a nap or something?

In the meantime, all the other fighter models have way fewer gun rounds that that particular variant F-15. So at best you're only going to get several seconds of button squeeze before you ran out of rounds.

Coupled with trying to line up your gunsight with the targeted drones and/or missiles under a high-stress environment, and the probability of your rounds missing the target entirely - There's only a small number of them that can be taken down, at best.

Trying to fit more guns and rounds on modern fighters is a very WW2-oriented mindset. There're very good reasons why modern fighter jets today carry less rounds that can be expended far more quickly - If not without a gun at all.

And FYI: The J-20 isn't the only fighter to not have a gun.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

.

No, because what is to stop it being used offensively even with dumb rounds, they still work.

Imagine the scenario: Two J-20’s are on patrol in the West Pacific, when in front of them they see 144 Tomahawks being launched from a submarine!

If they have guns they can use them to shoot down all missiles, in fact in this specific situation it might be best to use guns FIRST!

Or simply, if the enemy knows the J-20 can only shoot down 8 missiles/drones/whatever, he will send more than 8. So in any situation I can think of it’s better to have a gun, and be able to use it offensively to deal with large numbers of targets.

@Deino's prophecy just came true.

Swapping those two J-20s with two F-15s, and even that's still going to be far from sufficient.

Most importantly - What makes yout think that two J-20s are going to be the only thing standing in between those 144 Tomahawks and their targets? Did you just somehow take that systemized warfare capabilities of the PLA and throw it down the drain?

 

[tacoburger]

You'd be better off to use something like this do deal with drones/cruise missiles, yes?

Honestly? With FPV drones being as cheap as as they are. The best way to swarm with drone/missile swarms, especially lower end ones like what Ukraine/Iran has been launching en masse, is with an A.I controlled FPV drone swarm of your own. Again, if it's low end drones/missiles, you can launch your swarm off a transport aircraft- which can carry thousands of them. You could probably easily jury rig a fighter jet like the J-20 to carry a dozens of FPV drones if you really need to. The J-20 could be useful by to using it's radar for data networking with the drone swarm and the twin seater J-20 could be used to help control said drone swarms- with it's stealth helping it avoid being targeted.

Of course this is for low end missiles and drone swarms like the Shahed or the converted civilian aircraft that Ukraine has beep using to strike at Russia. With higher end drones and missiles of course, actual missiles would be better for AA.

 

[BoraTas]

Not again with putting words in my mouth please!

Global Hawk costs $100M+, do you think it’s worth a round? or how about a nuclear armed tomahawk cruise missile, is it worth adding a gun to shoot one of them down?

Because of your horrible track record of misunderstanding what I am saying, I need to point out that I never mentioned low cost drones, in fact I mentioned..

Please don’t let this descend. There is nothing ridiculous about suggesting adding a gun to Chinas only 5th Gen aircraft.

The fact that you are laughing at the thought of a J-20 fighting drones shows to me that you are the retarded one.

It’s very simple… guns give magazine depth. Hope you can understand the concept, cause what are you gonna do when your missiles run out but there are still many drones coming in? You gonna fly home and cry about it?

In fact, they should add TWO f’ing guns!

Nobody is misunderstanding you Andy. It is just you have a habit of suggesting outlandish things without thinking about what you are suggesting or checking how things are done in the first place.
If you were actually following what was happening in the world and in the defense industry you would know that USAF aircraft mostly used AIM-9X missiles that day. You would also know that aircraft, at best, carry a few hundred rounds and that is enough for 5 drones at most because of the inherent dispersion. You would also know about safety hazards related to gun engagements done against much slower targets. There is a plenty of material about the trials of jet fighters against propeller driven aircraft. Also, you could just simulate the scenario in your mind. It is quite obvious even without data.

Here are some your of suggestions so far on this website:

1- Electric gun with smart ammo as CIWS. And that PLA is heading for it!

PLAN close in weapon

An image of a Type 1130 taken from an interesting perspective.

www.sinodefenceforum.com

2- Floating airports in the Pacific

PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

As an English language forum, we would be better focusing on the NATO reporting name for the new 6th Gen. Flounder/Firebird/Firefang...Firebrand? I guess Firefox is taken as well. NATO names get determined by NATO, we have no influence over that. I also think people are being a bit obsessed...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

3- Orbital VLS on a barge. It is being eyed by PLAN to launch DF-26 and DF-27!!!
China's Space Program Thread II

4- Stirling engine to control reactor temperature

Rumoured "mini-nuke/diesel" Submarine SSK-N(?) thread

If you're talking about Soyru class then sure nothing can beat pure battery in noise, but why don't you mention endurance then? Again, larger sub -> more space for quieting technology -> quieter subs Again, if sterling engine is the main source of noise then SSKN will have zero noise...

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5- PLARF covering PLAN vessels in the East Med by DF-27.

China IRBM/SRBM (and non-ICBM/SLBM) thread

Does anyone know of any actual video footage of an IRBM or ICBM hitting the ground after test flight. Just curious what an impact from object descending from space at high speed would look like. Cheers men.

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6- The use of the 076's catapult to launch cruise missiles

Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

Based on the current observation, angled deck on the 076 LHD looks to be rather unlikely. In the meantime, the J-35 is essentially a twin-engine medium-weight 5th-gen carrier-based fighter. If measures have to be taken by reducing the payload and fuel capacities just so that the J-35 can be...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

7- China deleting diesel generators from SSKs and using such SSKs in the middle of the Pacific. And such submarines getting charged by floating windmills

Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

Based on what I heard from my sources, they definitely do have noise and completely isolating those noise against low frequency sonar in deep water is not a given. Yes, hybrid cars are quiet, but the engine in question would be a lot larger and deep sea water transmits sound really well. I...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

Continuing the discussion of what China's future conventional fleet looks like. Shilao's podcast recently mentioned that when 039B production slowed down, people were speculating whether the next submarine would be much smaller or be using mini nuclear reactor. But with 039C, it looks like they...

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8- The 076 may be being optimized for pure electric UGVs and the ZBD-05 being replaced by a full-electric AFV!!!

Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

There has been a lot of speculations on the catapult length, J35 and number of lifts etc. I foresee a lot of disappointment the day the final piece of the modules is welded onto type 076. Very few people ask why China need this type of ship, where are they going to deploy them, what type of war...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

Yes. and that certainly looks like a long well deck but the question is does it have a ramp like the Type 075 LHD because my understanding is the standard configuration for the Type 075 LHD is 2 x LCAC with plenty of rotary wing on the Type 075 LHD while the Type 071 LPD can take 4 x Type...

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Then of course there is that saga on the J-31 thread where you changed your point like 10 times and tried to gaslight multiple people.

You keep posting anything that sounds high-tech and exotic to you as a smart procurement idea. But you don't research why things are done like they are done presently or think about impracticalities of your high-tech ideas. It is how you suggest things like floating airports and SSKs without engines and the use of the J-20 with 2 guns against cheap drones.

Worse, when people point the problems with your ideas you get aggressive. You accuse others of misunderstanding you and you keep changing your point. In this discussion you have already done these several times. You are already accusing people of misunderstanding you (We don't. Believe me. It is just your suggestions are weird) and using a vulgar language. And I can't go without mentioning this. You very visibly have a grudge against Blitzo from the said J-31 discussion. A forum discussion is an "interesting" thing to hold a grudge for.

 

[lcloo]

Honestly? With FPV drones being as cheap as as they are. The best way to swarm with drone/missile swarms, especially lower end ones like what Ukraine/Iran has been launching en masse, is with an A.I controlled FPV drone swarm of your own. Again, if it's low end drones/missiles, you can launch your swarm off a transport aircraft- which can carry thousands of them. You could probably easily jury rig a fighter jet like the J-20 to carry a dozens of FPV drones if you really need to. The J-20 could be useful by to using it's radar for data networking with the drone swarm and the twin seater J-20 could be used to help control said drone swarms- with it's stealth helping it avoid being targeted.

Of course this is for low end missiles and drone swarms like the Shahed or the converted civilian aircraft that Ukraine has beep using to strike at Russia. With higher end drones and missiles of course, actual missiles would be better for AA.

J16D is a better choice than J20 since it can electronically jam the drone swarms. And Y9 based EW planes can be deployed too.

Soft kill several large drone swarms with flip of a switch might be more effective than launching missiles or using drones on drones.

 

[Blitzo]

Okay I think we've all made our point now.

Let's get back to J-20. I'll leave the above posts present as a record of what has been said so that we don't retread the same topics on other places or later in this thread again. Further off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[CMP]

I think we should put micro cold fusion reactors on the J-20. In addition to enabling the J-20 to fly as fast as 0.1c, at least on paper, it can also be used to power the best lasers that can melt any drones. The CCP needs to hurry up and procure this within the next couple of years or they'll lose the new cold war. We can figure out how to keep the plane intact at such high speeds later. An unimportant detail for later.

 

[Atomicfrog]

I think we should put micro cold fusion reactors on the J-20. In addition to enabling the J-20 to fly as fast as 0.1c, at least on paper, it can also be used to power the best lasers that can melt any drones. The CCP needs to hurry up and procure this within the next couple of years or they'll lose the new cold war. We can figure out how to keep the plane intact at such high speeds later. An unimportant detail for later.

Starting to look like the Indian Military News thread...

 

[defenceman]

Fun fact, F-35A's GAU-22 depletes its 180 round reserve in 3.27 sec.

Hi,
sorry to be off topic this 180 rounds is standard for modern fighters now a days,
or some of them having more than 180 rounds,
thank you