J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
$20M for J-20?, hard to believe

My guess is $75M to $100M

I'd go with a cost range of $70-86 Mn for a J-20, with a 70% confidence level.

The F-35A cost is $86 Mn (including engine) and has reached a floor.
My best guess is that the J-20 (including engine) costs $70-80 Mn.
However, there is a possibility that the J-20 is almost as expensive as an F-35A

And in another 4 years, the J-20 would drop another $10 Mn, as per the F-35 experience, because the Chinese are at an earlier stage of the production learning curve.

Methodology and all the assumptions below.

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We could use the F-35 as a reference, and specifically the Air Force airframe (excluding engines) as it is the most comparable to the J-20.

For 3 years from LRIP 5-7, the F-35 was at 35 per year. The cost dropped from $111 Mn to $98 Mn
Then it took another 4 years to ramp up to full rate production of 141 per year. The cost further dropped to about $80? Mn
After another 5 years to today, the cost has dropped to $70 Mn, and has reached a floor.
And the F-35 engine in 2023 costs another $16 Mn

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Back in 2018 (Chinese LRIP 3?), the J-20 cost was supposed to be $100-110 Mn.
And my guess is that we're near the end of the J-20 ramp to 100-120? per year.

If we go by the F-35 experience, that would imply the J-20 costs $70-80 Mn

So yes, the J-20 is a bigger aircraft with 2 engines rather than 1.
But there are lower overall costs in China, plus the Chinese are starting further behind, so there are more (and easier) opportunities to improve.

NB. This assumes engines are included in the J-20 costs.
But even if they aren't, the AL-31 (WS-10 equivalent) was $4Mn each back in 2013.
Even with inflation, you wouldn't expect 2 such engines to exceed the single F-35 engine cost of $16 Mn

The other caveat is that the final WS-15 engine still has to be put into mass production, and will presumably increase costs.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
$25 million USD for the Su-57 is because of the current low value of the ruble vs when the contract was signed. Back then the ruble was worth 36% more. The export price with profit margin tacked on might be $40 million USD or close to it. I said up to $50 million USD for the J-20 because it has more modern optoelectronics and other systems. I suspect it has better RAM materials. And I factored in the extra cost of the engine. The Chinese engine in J-20B likely would cost more because it is 5th gen but I suspect the Chinese can make the electronics much more cheaply. These would be marginal prices per unit. Not taking into account paying R&D or cost to build factories and things like that. In Russia those things are often kept separate anyway and funded as separate budget items. I suspect in China the same thing would apply.

The thing is, while the F-35 is single engine, that engine isn't exactly small. The larger those single crystal turbine blades are, the longer it takes to grow them. You cannot assume that twice the engines means twice the price for that and other reasons.
 

P5678

New Member
Registered Member
$20M for J-20?, hard to believe

My guess is $75M to $100M
I asked for quotes for a steel part that needs CNC machining, it is not a very complicated part, the tolerance requirement is not high either. T
he US company quoted $711.21 with lead time of 14 days and free shipping, a Chinese company in Shenzhen quoted $70 with lead time of 10 days excluding shipping to US. Difference is there and it is bigger than I expected.
 

HSR

New Member
Registered Member
I asked for quotes for a steel part that needs CNC machining, it is not a very complicated part, the tolerance requirement is not high either. T
he US company quoted $711.21 with lead time of 14 days and free shipping, a Chinese company in Shenzhen quoted $70 with lead time of 10 days excluding shipping to US. Difference is there and it is bigger than I expected.
The profit margin of China's military products is controlled within 5% by the state
 

lcloo

Captain
My ex company Alsthom sent an engineer from France to repair gas turbine in a power station in Malaysia, they charged US$6,000 per day for the service, and that was a 1988 price. This tells you how huge profit margin western companies charged customers and why there is a large difference in prices between Western products and Chinese products.
 
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