J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[AndrewS]

We used to have the PL-15 and PL-21 designations. That said, the PL-15 gets attributed 300 km range, which gets me wondering: are they talking about PL-15 or PL-21/PL-X? Attributing the PL-15 300 km range would also help clear up some confusion: there's also reports of a 400 km missile, so the PL-15 would be the 300 km missile and the 400 km missile.

With the dual pulse motor, the PL-15's range would be plausible. The AIM-120D never received the asked-for dual pulse motor, and it maxes out at around 180 km.

If you assume 800 km range on the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, and assume an L-Band RCS of -20 dBsm, the J-20 would be detected at 252 km by the AEW&C. With 1200 km range, it would require a 380 km missile to hit the AEW&C on detection.

With the AEW&C gone, the J-20s can safely jam F-35 AESA and force it down to EODAS. Assume EODAS, beyond the EOTS, is not very long range. Then the J-20 can snipe the F-35 from above and at subsonic speeds at leisure using its own height advantage and EOTS to see the F-35 when the F-35 can't see it.

This type of tactic would require a type of 3D formation with J-20s operating both on high and low altitutdes, with low-altitide J-20s tasked to counter the AEW&C and high-altitude J-20s tasked to counter the F-35s. At maximum range, it would take the PL-15 about 4 minutes to impact the AEW&C, more if the AEW&C attempts to maneuver out of the PL-15's range and if the goal simply becomes to jam the F-35.

It'd be an interesting game; the AEW&C could likely counterjam the J-20s given its higher output power, but the J-20s would be more numerous.

Another scenario is that we can also see that the E-2D with its anti-stealth radar is forming the centrepiece of the battle network. It has an operating ceiling of 10km, which means a radar horizon of 450km.

So both the J-20 or J-11 could approach at low altitude, until they reach the 450km radar horizon of a E-2D. Then they can pop up and then start accelerating hard for 1-2 minutes to provide the missile with enough energy for a 400km shot at a E-2D.

And in terms of final targeting, we can see the Divine Eagle has an operating altitude of 25km, which gives it a radar horizon of 700km. So it can provide UHF and X-Band tracking.

 

[FORBIN]

Here it is:

...


1. My original report said nothing to maneuverability but I said "Currently the fighter is underpowered ... at least until the planned WS-15 engine is available. In the meantime, the J-20's engines are probably adequate and will provide flight performance at least comparable to the latest J-11B fighter." (in quote 3)

...

It is interesting ! this chick turn

It means same than Su-27, J-11 i think for turn rates ?
I have but very difficult to find rare datas... for Su-27 ITR 28 deg/s and STR 22 deg/s

 

[Jura The idiot]

In other words it's propaganda.

my wording would be different:
"the article probably has an agenda-setting role"
LOL!

 

[FORBIN]

In other words it's propaganda.

Have you exacts technicals points for prove your allegation ? what nonsense you see
What is good what is bad ?

I ask coz Deino have begin talk about it as for agility i have mentionned after the mess going ...and Deino don't have completely finished..

It is complely logic this report have some problems with Chinese Govt/Mod opacity and in more the language ! proof the size of the J-20...
Any honest person can ' t say the opposite.

 

[Blitzo]

Not how this works I'm afraid. As I said to b787 (though you aren't making the asinine point he was) by this logic the entire airplane is wing area, since the entire surface of the plane contributes to lift. Either way don't put *too* much into wing area estimates. It's a caveman's short hand for the actual engineering and science that goes into designing a plane.

Damn I feel like that can sum up half of the discussions about J-20's kinematics on this forum and other ones... and indeed for all fighter aircraft's maneuverability in general...

 

[b787]

It is interesting ! this chick turn

It means same than Su-27, J-11 i think for turn rates ?
I have but very difficult to find rare datas... for Su-27 ITR 28 deg/s and STR 22 deg/s

You have to see two points, the STR and ITR are given based upon a fuel fraction and weapon load the 28 ITR was given for a Su-27 flying with 2 AA-11 and 2 AA-10 at 50% internal fuel, so when they say two aircraft are dogfighting you need to know how much fuel it carries and how much payload is carrying, F-35 flew against an F-16 with external fuel tanks and was defeated.


If the Flanker gets rid of the fuel and weapons improves its wing loading and its ITR but loses in combat capacity and reduces its range.

The test of a J-20 versus a Su-27 to be realistic needs to have a similar fuel fraction and similar number and type of weapons.


The wing loading of a Flanker also is usually quoted with the same amount of fuel and number of weapons (50% fuel and 4 weapons)

Realistically speaking i doubt the J-20 can beat a Flanker as it is now in STR because of the wing type (deltas bleed energy quicker unless they have really good TWR).

However in ITR i could see a possibility, also in roll rate, that the J-20 can beat the Flanker but i doubt it will have better acceleration, climb rate or STR because the Flanker is lighter and has a TWR of 1:1.27 at 50% fuel and 4 weapons which is a weight of 24000kg , while as for now i doubt the J-20 can have a TWR of 1:0.9 because the engines it has will not give it better TWR in a very likely 29-30 tonnes normal take off weight
(remember Flanker Su-27 does not use external fuel tanks).

 

[Figaro]

Not how this works I'm afraid. As I said to b787 (though you aren't making the asinine point he was) by this logic the entire airplane is wing area, since the entire surface of the plane contributes to lift. Either way don't put *too* much into wing area estimates. It's a caveman's short hand for the actual engineering and science that goes into designing a plane.

b787 just comes to the J-20 thread to intentionally spread flame bait. Normally, such forum trolls get burnt out after a while ... but b787 is resilient (he's been doing this for multiple years). The only option is to stop feeding the troll ... and he will sooner than later starve out. People might as well stop responding to his illogical posts because he lives off others' responses.

 

[FORBIN]

b787 just comes to the J-20 thread to intentionally spread flame bait. Normally, such forum trolls get burnt out after a while ... but b787 is resilient (he's been doing this for multiple years). The only option is to stop feeding the troll ... and he will sooner than later starve out. People might as well stop responding to his illogical posts because he lives off others' responses.

Maybe but i wait since a while an answer for J-20 agility and him provide...others talk ( not all ofc ) but provide Nothing !

The sentence with 3 words as Delft posted means nothing only critics and thanks to the report finally i know ( about) for agility !!!

You think is intelligent again talk about that for again have the mess here ? ...

 

[manqiangrexue]

Maybe but i wait since a while an answer for J-20 agility and him provide...others talk ( not all ofc ) but provide Nothing !

The sentence with 3 words as Delft posted means nothing only critics and thanks to the report finally i know for agility !!!

LOL Because it is better to provide no answer when no information is known. When the length of J-20 was unknown, fools answered it was 75 feet and other fools applauded them as geniuses because they have an answer when others have none. Now they forget they said anything and crawl away under rocks. Precisely what happened when B787 tells you J-20 has a TWR of 0.9, especially funny when coming from a person who can't even calculate area given an image and self-admits that he can only uses his eyes and feeling instead of numbers LOL. He likes to make fake numbers and make fake conclusions for people like you; it's easy to do so. I can do for you too; see here:

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-vi.t8169/page-66#post-480142

 

[FORBIN]

LOL Because it is better to provide no answer when no information is known. When the length of J-20 was unknown, fools answered it was 75 feet and other fools applauded them as geniuses because they have an answer when others have none. Now they forget they said anything and crawl away under rocks. Precisely what happened when B787 tells you J-20 has a TWR of 0.9 LOL. He likes to make fake numbers and make fake conclusions for people like you; it's easy to do so. I can do for you too; see here:

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-5th-gen-fighter-thread-vi.t8169/page-66#post-480142

For a fake you seems a good