J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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latenlazy

Brigadier
Here's the thing, use your brain. In the last section of the text, Gongke states more or less that you can determine whether it's a WS-15 by counting the petals on the nozzle. Moving it back to previous sentences, he states that people have seen the nozzle installed on the J-20. He's being ambiguous; you can put in the brackets if you want, but in the full context of the text it's obvious that he means that you can tell that the WS-15 is installed by petal count, and that people have already seen the WS-15 nozzle, hence the WS-15 is installed on the J-20.

Obviously, having checked something like 200 pictures of the J-20, I can't seem to find a 15 petal nozzle on the J-20. Gongke101 is mistaken in that the 15 petal J-20 nozzle does not unambiguously show up on previous J-20s. But Gongke101 gets it wrong too. Within the total thread, he mentions once that the WS-15 has a military thrust between 160 and 200 kN, when the F119 only achieves 117 kN military thrust. It is obvious here that he means afterburner thrust, not military thrust.
Why don’t you actually take your own advice and read the thread yourself. Here’s Gongke sarcastically mocking a commenter for interpreting his comment to mean the WS-15 has already been installed on the J-20.

快乐松2 发表于 2018-8-30 14:26
楼上你们怎么这么不合格??!!工科的意思很名确呀,就是扇子15已装机试飞,三年后定型!定型后公开就可以 ...
Gongke’s meaning is very clear, which is the WS-15 has already been installed and is in test flight, to be finalized in 3 years!


这解读,太发散了,我是无语了。
This reading comprehension, too divergent, I’m speechless.

upload_2018-8-31_9-40-44.jpeg

Gongke didn’t say people have seen the nozzle already installed on the J-20, but that they have seen the nozzle meant for the J-20. One could have seen the nozzle design without having seen the whole engine, *which is exactly unambiguously what he said in the opening sentence* of the post we’re discussing.

Get better english reading comprehension while you’re at it. I did not say that Gongke didn’t say you can tell by petal count, just that he doesn’t specify how many petals the WS-15 installed on the J-20 will have.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
Gongke didn’t say people have seen the nozzle already installed on the J-20, but that they have seen the nozzle meant for the J-20. One could have seen the nozzle design without having seen the whole engine, *which is exactly unambiguously what he said in the opening sentence* of the post we’re discussing.
Just posting a small addendum because I’m past the 20 minute time for edits. One could have also seen the nozzle design without having seen it installed on the J-20.

Edit: Also realized I cropped out gongke’s comment about being speechless in the screencap. Providing another one here.

upload_2018-8-31_10-12-49.jpeg
 

Inst

Captain
About the modifiers, given that Gongke101 refuted the statement, I'll cede, but it's still ambiguous whether the 装在 is an is or an ought. That was the mistake that the poster in the thread made as well, assuming that 装在 implied that people saw the engine already installed, since Gongke101 was not specific in specifying only that the engine was intended to be installed. Contextually, from the delayed status of the WS-15, Gongke101 might have thought it would be obvious that the engine was not installed, but it's just as possible that the engine design is not finalized in the same way the WS-10 for the J-10 wasn't finalized; i.e, it had performance or reliability issues.

As for the number of petals, it's called a pun, and puns are not always grammatical or even morphologically correct. Moreover, we've seen the example of the J-10B TVC in that it has specifically 15 petals, not the 18 petals that are standard on the WS-10.

His point in not specifying, and only giving an indirect indication, is that during the design phase, the number of petals may change from the 15 we see on the J-10B to some other number.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
About the modifiers, given that Gongke101 refuted the statement, I'll cede, but it's still ambiguous whether the 装在 is an is or an ought. That was the mistake that the poster in the thread made as well, assuming that 装在 implied that people saw the engine already installed, since Gongke101 was not specific in specifying only that the engine was intended to be installed. Contextually, from the delayed status of the WS-15, Gongke101 might have thought it would be obvious that the engine was not installed, but it's just as possible that the engine design is not finalized in the same way the WS-10 for the J-10 wasn't finalized; i.e, it had performance or reliability issues.

As for the number of petals, it's called a pun, and puns are not always grammatical or even morphologically correct. Moreover, we've seen the example of the J-10B TVC in that it has specifically 15 petals, not the 18 petals that are standard on the WS-10.

His point in not specifying, and only giving an indirect indication, is that during the design phase, the number of petals may change from the 15 we see on the J-10B to some other number.
There is no ambiguity of is or ought with 装在. 装在 is an “is”. The problem is in what you identified as that “is”. You read “装在” as an active verb when it was clearly, within the grammatical construction of the clause in question, part of a phrase-adjective.

On petal counts, Gongke wasn’t making a pun. Chinese puns don’t work like that. He’s consistently referred to the WS-15 as just “15”. It’s typical Chinese shorthand to drop formal modifiers for some item with a designation number if what the number is referring to is obvious. For example, the Type 055 (055 型) is frequently referred to as 055 or just 55. If Gongke was referring to the J-10’s TVC nozzle then he wouldn’t be afraid of sharing a picture of the nozzle since that nozzle is already out in the open. I’d also hold out on assuming the drawing of the TVC nozzle in both the magazine illustration and the web cartoon are physically accurate. On the one picture we have that shows the whole circumference of the nozzle I counted 14 petals, but the picture is too fuzzy. We should wait until we get a better picture of the nozzle before we say for sure there are 15 petals on the tvc nozzle.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Gongke confirmed J-20 is not testing with WS-15 (as far as he is aware of and choosing to reveal) when he corrected the other poster. So there's really no development he's revealing. What's the fuss.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
If I may join the merry speculation whirligig, I would like to submit two theories:

1. The WS-15 has not yet been installed in an aircraft and has not been shown publicly as a whole. However, the *nozzle* with which it will eventually be fitted has - though not necessarily while installed in *an actual J-20*. It might be that the WS-15 is intended to receive the con-di 3D-TVC design which has been seen flying in that J-10 testbed, as Hyperwarp & Hendrik have suggested. Although the engine in this case is a WS-10, that's not an unprecedented scenario - the LOAN nozzle for the F135 on the F-35 was first flight-tested with a F100 in a F-16. Gist: as soon as that AVEN-like design appears on the J-20 we'll know it's the WS-15.

2. The WS-15 has not yet been installed in an aircraft and has not been shown publicly as a whole. However, the *nozzle* with which it will eventually be fitted has - though not necessarily while installed in *an actual J-20*. Perhaps Salut of Russia is contributing to the WS-15 project and it's the low-observable 3D-TVC design which was shown several months ago? A problem with that hypothesis is that Salut's nozzle has considerably more than 15 petals, with the caveat that the external aerodynamic/RCS shroud was never shown. Then again on what basis are we so certain that 15 is in fact the number to look out for? As far as I understand, gongke did not specify he WS-15's petal count - only that it differs from both the AL-31F and the WS-10 variant currently flying in the J-20.

Both options fit with the elaborate explanation of the original source which latenlazy has so kindly provided.

If Gongke was referring to the J-10’s TVC nozzle then he wouldn’t be afraid of sharing a picture of the nozzle since that nozzle is already out in the open.

That's not necessarily how secrecy/classification works. The nozzle design itself might well not be a secret, while its association with the WS-15 and J-20 is very much so. Provided that you maintain plausible deniability, things can be hidden in plain sight by merely not telling the whole story. Conversely, publicly known facts may still be officially classified, simply because the rules governing that status require that they are to be considered secret. It's a bureaucratic stamp at the end of the day, and subject to all of the absurdities that can entail.

Officially the F-117 is retired and grounded - yet several examples are still routinely seen (and photographed) flying around the restricted areas of Nevada in plain daylight. No particular effort is apparently made to hide their presence from outside observers, yet if you were to ask a USAF official, he would steadfastly deny it.

Another famous example is the 1993 shoot-out between Red Army Faction terrorist Wolfgang Grams and German GSG-9 special forces in Bad Kleinen - several witnesses had seen two people accompanying Grams, but official statements only mentioned one (fellow terrorist Birgit Hogefeld). The reason for the discrepancy (which gave rise to various conspiracy theories)? In fact the third person did exist, but he was an undercover agent whom government authorities sought to keep a secret (firstly out of concern for his personal safety, secondly to hide the fact that they had been able to infiltrate the organisation). It was some considerable time before they came round to the seemingly trivial fact that he was not going to be "un-seen", and acknowledged his presence.

Just posting a small addendum because I’m past the 20 minute time for edits. One could have also seen the nozzle design without having seen it installed on the J-20.

Exactly.
 

jobjed

Captain
Just posting a small addendum because I’m past the 20 minute time for edits. One could have also seen the nozzle design without having seen it installed on the J-20.

Gongke did see the nozzle of the WS-15. AVIC brought WS-15 parts to various engine institutes and manufacturers around the country as a show-and-tell a few years back. Mockups of the WS-15 are also more accessible than the actual thing meaning quite a few people would know what it looks like without having seen it.
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
But Gongke101 gets it wrong too. Within the total thread, he mentions once that the WS-15 has a military thrust between 160 and 200 kN, when the F119 only achieves 117 kN military thrust. It is obvious here that he means afterburner thrust, not military thrust.
Where did he say this?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
If
That's not necessarily how secrecy/classification works. The nozzle design itself might well not be a secret, while its association with the WS-15 and J-20 is very much so. Provided that you maintain plausible deniability, things can be hidden in plain sight by merely not telling the whole story. Conversely, publicly known facts may still be officially classified, simply because the rules governing that status require that they are to be considered secret. It's a bureaucratic stamp at the end of the day, and subject to all of the absurdities that can entail.

If the WS-15 nozzle was identical to the J-10’s TVC nozzle he could have just said so without posting any photos. If the J-10’s TVC nozzles were classified then the officials probably wouldn’t have let the picture out in the first place (with a magazine spread explaining how the nozzles work at that). I don’t see why, if the WS-15 nozzles are identical, that posting a picture or simply pointing out that the J-10’s TVC nozzles are the same as the WS-15’s would still be classified. These arguments aren’t foolproof of course, but that particular line of questioning makes me think the J-10’s TVC nozzles being the same as the WS-15’s is unlikely, *especially* since it’s built almost exclusively on the conjecture that the WS-15 must have 15 nozzle petals from a rather weak interpretation of a translated comment. We have other reasons for doubting the WS-15 shares the same nozzles as the WS-10 with TVC, not the least of which is the fact that these are two totally different engines which will invariably have different aft sections, and the fact that Gongke has been quite adamant in his other comments that when the WS-15 finally shows up it will be obvious because of how stout the nozzles will be, which might imply its nozzles will look shorter than the WS-10s (perhaps the same length but greater diameter).
 
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