J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Iron Man]

Engines are propulsion, radar and sensors are targeting a gun is part of the weapons system and a fighter's whole function is to employ weapons.


Unlike a missile a cannon cannot pop out or be dropped from the fuselage. IT has to have it' muzzle in bore of the nose of the fighter. I have seen one attempt at pointo to a gun port on the older J20's but that hatch vanished with the latest iterations.
Also please review my other posts one thing I reiterate a number of times is the likelihood that the current units we have seen have not gotten a gun as the J20 is not ready for one yet.

If we were to wait for CCTV documentaries we might as well not be in this thread.

3 points to hufflepuff for good use of an amusing mental image. However again I am looking at weapons integration and readiness level.



Again I did give the Opinion that lack of a Gun may simply be the result of there only being 13-14 units in existence with 4 being early proof of concept machines. with the number of existing machines It is highly likely that the J20 is just not ready for a gun as a gun system would only really be needed on machines intended for participation in actual use. IE just like how every time i skim this thread there are constant arguments about them changing engines If we believe that the J20 is not at the mission ready package then a gun could be added at a later date.

I have no idea why you think a gun could simply be added to a fighter like the J-20 "later", like somehow the J-20 could follow in the footsteps of the F-4. It either has the internal room/mounting and the external paneling for it right now (whether or not the gun is actually inside), or it doesn't. The physical presence of the gun is TOTALLY irrelevant to the necessary internal mounting and external paneling that needs to be present already from the early design stages of the J-20. If it wasn't designed with a gun in mind back in the day, it's not ever going to get a gun. If it WAS designed with a gun in mind, then whether or not any of the current models actually have a gun installed at the moment is, like I said, completely immaterial.

Also, you have still not been able to answer whether or not you personally can identify with any reasonable degree of certainty all of the external paneling on the dorsal surface of the J-20. If you can't, and we all know you can't, then you have no basis of any kind to make any definitive pronouncements on whether or not there is a gun (or provisions for a gun) on this fighter. The correct position on whether there is a gun on the J-20 is pure agnosticism at this point: nobody knows so let's not anyone pretend they do know. This stupid topic has already been hacked to death a zillion times.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

I do Ironman
Because other fighters have sacrificed guns in the past. The EA18G for example deleted the cannon for a jamming equipment the British looked into deleting the gun from there typhoons at first, then said it was for ballast then broke down and added ammo. Special versions of Combat aircraft converted for flight demonstration missions often remove gun systems as unnecessary for there new specialized mission. The modifications to the F4 were unique as it was a fully developed and employed/ Combat Deployed system J20 is not it's pre production and changes made now are easier to introduce then when you see hundreds of machines.
Any firing port for a fighter needs to be along the leading edge of the fighter to allow for firing inline with nose of the fighter, and that will not interfere with the Control surface of the fighter That removes Wings and Tails that more or less removes the wing roots as you don't want to shoot off your own canards. so I am looking for a structure forward of the connards trailing edge on the fuselage, That has a clear line into space ahead of the fighter as your not going to be aiming a gun that fires into the rear of the fighter or off above the pilot. You are not going to place it behind the weapons bay doors, So This actually gives me a small area to look. but not just over but also under.
For your Information Ironman both Chengdu J10 and JH7 use Ventral mounted cannons on the port side under the intakes.
and nothing no doors no indications of doors. we have the
Electro Optics, Intakes and gear doors. no indications of a Weapon other than missiles

 

[jobjed]

I do Ironman
Because other fighters have sacrificed guns in the past. The EA18G for example deleted the cannon for a jamming equipment the British looked into deleting the gun from there typhoons at first, then said it was for ballast then broke down and added ammo. Special versions of Combat aircraft converted for flight demonstration missions often remove gun systems as unnecessary for there new specialized mission. The modifications to the F4 were unique as it was a fully developed and employed/ Combat Deployed system J20 is not it's pre production and changes made now are easier to introduce then when you see hundreds of machines.
Any firing port for a fighter needs to be along the leading edge of the fighter to allow for firing inline with nose of the fighter, and that will not interfere with the Control surface of the fighter That removes Wings and Tails that more or less removes the wing roots as you don't want to shoot off your own canards. so I am looking for a structure forward of the connards trailing edge on the fuselage, That has a clear line into space ahead of the fighter as your not going to be aiming a gun that fires into the rear of the fighter or off above the pilot. You are not going to place it behind the weapons bay doors, So This actually gives me a small area to look. but not just over but also under.
For your Information Ironman both Chengdu J10 and JH7 use Ventral mounted cannons on the port side under the intakes.
and nothing no doors no indications of doors. we have the
Electro Optics, Intakes and gear doors. no indications of a Weapon other than missiles

The gun port is definitely not on the bottom of the J-20 for the same reason it's not on the F-22; their bottoms are too flat, without a protrusion that can host a gun.

As for the top of the aircraft, there are dozens of hatches and discrete panels. How could you possibly know that none of them contain the gun?

Every single Chinese fighter aircraft ever designed had a gun, why do you expect the J-20 to cease with this philosophy? The de facto reality is that Chinese fighters have guns. If you want to claim a divergence from the de facto, the burden of proof is on you. So, can you prove that J-20 doesn't have a gun?

 

[Iron Man]

Because other fighters have sacrificed guns in the past. The EA18G for example deleted the cannon for a jamming equipment the British looked into deleting the gun from there typhoons at first, then said it was for ballast then broke down and added ammo. Special versions of Combat aircraft converted for flight demonstration missions often remove gun systems as unnecessary for there new specialized mission. The modifications to the F4 were unique as it was a fully developed and employed/ Combat

There are very specific reasons to "sacrifice" a gun that previously existed, such as EW equipment in the case of the E/A-18G. Which of these apply to the J-20?

Deployed system J20 is not it's pre production and changes made now are easier to introduce then when you see hundreds of machines.

No, DELETIONS made now are easier than when you see hundreds of machines. ADDITIONS, especially unplanned additions, especially something the size of a gun at this stage of the J-20's development, is ludicrous to even consider. The F-4II had to mount its gun externally. The J-20 would not be doing anything of the kind given how this would seriously compromise its stealth capabilities.

Any firing port for a fighter needs to be along the leading edge of the fighter to allow for firing inline with nose of the fighter, and that will not interfere with the Control surface of the fighter That removes Wings and Tails that more or less removes the wing roots as you don't want to shoot off your own canards. so I am looking for a structure forward of the connards trailing edge on the fuselage, That has a clear line into space ahead of the fighter as your not going to be aiming a gun that fires into the rear of the fighter or off above the pilot. You are not going to place it behind the weapons bay doors, So This actually gives me a small area to look. but not just over but also under.

You can look for a structure that's only forward of the back of the canards if you want, but the rest of us are free to look elsewhere as well; that means anywhere inside these red boxes.. The reasons you give for massively restricting the potential gun sites just don't hold any water IMO.

For your Information Ironman both Chengdu J10 and JH7 use Ventral mounted cannons on the port side under the intakes.

I already know this information, and yet this information is totally irrelevant in this discussion.

and nothing no doors no indications of doors. we have the
Electro Optics, Intakes and gear doors. no indications of a Weapon other than missiles

Again, you are in point of fact unable to identify the function of every single panel inside those red boxes on either the port or starboard side. You have not admitted to this yet, but it is a point which everyone reading this thread will automatically (and correctly) take for granted.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

The gun port is definitely not on the bottom of the J-20 for the same reason it's not on the F-22; their bottoms are too flat, without a protrusion that can host a gun.

correct. If you look at the fighters i mentioned they have the gun mounted in a housing protruding from under the fuselage and intake.

As for the top of the aircraft, there are dozens of hatches and discrete panels. How could you possibly know that none of them contain the gun?

Again it has to be along the leading edge as it has to fire ahead of the fighter and if you note It cannot be inside the intakes above the intakes would be fin but you have the canards which take up space and anything behind them has a problem as the joint between the connard and the fuselage flares up. any gun behind that had to be above it. the spine offers an option

but again it has to have a clear line forward of the nose.

Every single Chinese fighter aircraft ever designed had a gun, why do you expect the J-20 to cease with this philosophy? The de facto reality is that Chinese fighters have guns. If you want to claim a divergence from the de facto, the burden of proof is on you. So, can you prove that J-20 doesn't have a gun?

I did not say That Production J20 will not have a gun I said there are no indications that the Current prototypes do.

 

[Inst]

@ Max: The bays of the J-20 are too shallow for it to be an effective striker. It is more likely optimized for air superiority, then interception, but the poor engines make it best suited for an interception role. Think F-14 with TF-30.

 

[Blitzo]

Well the early early ones will not need one the YF22 and YF23 lacked such as did the X35. and again a simulator could be a bit of software or a just a iron weight or both.
I view it as a sign of readiness. the more weapons and systems integrated the closer to actual missions.


yet what that means is claims of an IOC any time in the next 2 years is a bit dubious.

Well no, the underlying issue of contention is that you believe it is reasonable for us to have expected to have seen evidence of a gun port by now.

I am saying the fundamental logic of that underlying assumption is very much dubious at best.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

There are very specific reasons to "sacrifice" a gun that previously existed, such as EW equipment in the case of the E/A-18G. Which of these apply to the J-20?

because right now it does not need one. This is Early LRIP, None of the current J20 are likely to ever be used beyond the testing range.

No, DELETIONS made now are easier than when you see hundreds of machines. ADDITIONS, especially unplanned additions, especially something the size of a gun at this stage of the J-20's development, is ludicrous to even consider. The F-4II had to mount its gun externally. The J-20 would not be doing anything of the kind given how this would seriously compromise its stealth capabilities.

This is not delition this would be addition. Alterations to the Frame are expected.

You can look for a structure that's only forward of the back of the canards if you want, but the rest of us are free to look elsewhere as well; that means anywhere inside these red boxes.. The reasons you give for massively restricting the potential gun sites just don't hold any water IMO.

Opinions are like ..... everyone has one, and they all insist it does not stink. note the areas you show flare up.

I already know this information, and yet this information is totally irrelevant in this discussion.

Good for you! Would you like a Gold star? Quit Trolling and move on You have given you Opinion I have mine.

Again, you are in point of fact unable to identify the function of every single panel inside those red boxes on either the port or starboard side. You have not admitted to this yet, but it is a point which everyone reading this thread will automatically (and correctly) take for granted.

Now you're just being annoying. There is the box located on the port side but that is likely part of the cooling system there are similar structures on PAKFA, F35 and F22 in fact F22's is almost in the exact same place.

 

[Iron Man]

@ Max: The bays of the J-20 are too shallow for it to be an effective striker. It is more likely optimized for air superiority, then interception, but the poor engines make it best suited for an interception role. Think F-14 with TF-30.

The chance that the J-20 was designed as a strike fighter is just about zero. We can talk about air superiority vs interception but either way this fighter was designed to kill aircraft, not surface or ground targets.

 

[Iron Man]

because right now it does not need one. This is Early LRIP, None of the current J20 are likely to ever be used beyond the testing range.

I don't know if you're being intentional obtuse, or if you really honestly have no idea what we are talking about here. Whether or not there is actually a gun on these current prototype and LRIP birds is IRRELEVANT. What we are ultimately talking about is whether the J-20 was designed early on to be able to accept a gun. If it was, then the internal framework and (more relevant for this discussion) the external paneling will be present on these current birds. If not, then none of the dorsal paneling will be openings for the gun. The actual presence of a gun is not relevant in any way, shape, or form.

This is not delition this would be addition. Alterations to the Frame are expected.

Alterations to the frame may or may not be expected, but adding something like a GUN to a stealth fighter that is already LRIP that was not previously designed to house a gun is just utterly ludicrous.

Opinions are like ..... everyone has one, and they all insist it does not stink. note the areas you show flare up. View attachment 36749

What is this "flare" that you are talking about?

Good for you! Would you like a Gold star? Quit Trolling and move on You have given you Opinion I have mine.

And what is your "opinion" about the JH-7 and the J-10 having ventral guns, in relation to this discussion? Please, enlighten us.

Now you're just being annoying. There is the box located on the port side but that is likely part of the cooling system there are similar structures on PAKFA, F35 and F22 in fact F22's is almost in the exact same place.

AGAIN, you are patently and obviously unable to identify the function of every dorsal panel contained inside those red boxes, yes or no? If yes, then please go ahead and identify them panel by panel. If no, then man up and admit it.