J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Air Force Brat]

So... still no yes or no to my question?

I think you understand what I'm getting at -- this question is meant to demonstrate that the presence of mirrors or lack of presence of mirrors is a silly thing to look at when trying to judge their role in a "knife fight" let alone how capable they are meant to be in it.

Come on Blitzo, drop it, Kwai has been more than clear, and explained in detail, what we all know to be true of the J-20, no need to set up a "strawman" dog and pony show just to entertain your "minions"?? LOL

Kwai has worked in and around the boat in the pri-fly for USN, he is an authority here, with time at sea doing the do! really no need to press him further, or he might tell you what he really thin

So yes, you do believe that the F-22 is as unsuited to the "knife fight" role as the J-20 is because just like J-20, the F-22 lacks mirrors?

Great, thank you or settling that.

So you've twisted his very detailed answers to craft a narrative, and now you're putting words in his mouth ?? so yes you did set up a straw man, then you "knocked it down"...

Yes his actual service lends credibility not only to himself, but to the Sino Defense Forum. Kwai thank you for your service brother, and thank you for the professionalism you bring to the SDF.

 

[Blitzo]

Come on Blitzo, drop it, Kwai has been more than clear, and explained in detail, what we all know to be true of the J-20, no need to set up a "strawman" dog and pony show just to entertain your "minions"?? LOL

Kwai has worked in and around the boat in the pri-fly for USN, he is an authority here, with time at sea doing the do! really no need to press him further, or he might tell you what he really thin

Ive already replied to this part of your post in my reply #3955

So you've twisted his very detailed answers to craft a narrative, and now you're putting words in his mouth ?? so yes you did set up a straw man, then you "knocked it down"...

Yes his actual service lends credibility not only to himself, but to the Sino Defense Forum. Kwai thank you for your service brother, and thank you for the professionalism you bring to the SDF.

I haven't twisted anything, but rather even in his last answer he has declined to directly answer the question I was asking, which was whether the lack of mirrors in both F-22 and J-20 means both are equally unsuited for "knife fights".

It is not a straw man when I am openly and repeatedly asking him a simple question and where his last reply does not even address it with a clear yes no answer, forcing me to infer what his answer really means.

If kwaig is still willing to clear this matter once and for all for air force brat, I will be repeat my question:

"do you agree that the lack of mirrors in F-22 means it is as unsuited to "knife fights" as the J-20 is given J-20 also lacks mirrors"?

Answer 1: agree, therefore meaning you agree that both are equally unsuited to "knife fights" due to both lacking mirrors.

Answer 2: disagree -- in which case you have to concede that lack of mirrors is not a viable critical premise for determining how suited an aircraft is for a "knife fight".


The desire to understand which of these two positions you hold has been my interest this whole time, to assess the logic behind your original post about cockpit mirrors.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Please not this red herring again! Other than the lack of F22 style 'stealth nozzles' (which incidently, neither does the F35 have), what other nitpick could detractors point to to suggest the J20 does not have all aspect stealth?

And no, I do not accept the suggestion that the side ventral fins are that bad for stealth, especially when taken into context of the much reduced vertical tail on the J20 compared to the likes of the F22.

All other things being equal, you will got a bigger RCS return from the F22's vertical tail than you would from the J20's tail and ventral fin combined.

Red herring or not it is my personal and professional opinion that the Raptor has a lower rear RCS than the J20. Do I know it as fact? No of course not but neither do you nor anyone else in this entire forum.

And why must people always bring in F22 comparisons when the topic was never even about that?

 

[Blitzo]

Red herring or not it is my personal and professional opinion that the Raptor has a lower rear RCS than the J20. Do I know it as fact? No of course not but neither do you nor anyone else in this entire forum.

And why must people always bring in F22 comparisons when the topic was never even about that?

F-22 is brought up because it is the aircraft whose role and configuration in many aspects are closest to J-20.

Therefore if someone chooses to apply a conclusion to judge J-20 then a common way to test the logic of the conclusion is to apply the logic to F-22 as well and see if it is consistent.


Usually, application of that logic to F-22 will show that the original conclusion about J-20 is not as simple or straight forward (or sometimes simply blatantly untrue) as it first seemed.

 

[vesicles]

Red herring or not it is my personal and professional opinion that the Raptor has a lower rear RCS than the J20. Do I know it as fact? No of course not but neither do you nor anyone else in this entire forum.

And why must people always bring in F22 comparisons when the topic was never even about that?

I don't think PLAwolf is comparing the J-20 with the F-22. He is saying that he believe the J-20 has all aspect stealth not just front.

Again, it's not J-20 vs F-22. It very well could be that the J-20 is less stealthy than the F-22. But that does not mean the J-20 doesn't have all aspect stealth.

I don't know enough about stealthiness to judge plawolf's statement. But I do know that you are misunderstanding his point.

 

[AssassinsMace]

After Zhuhai I remember reading somewhere on the internet that the J-20 wasn't stealthy because the engines were loud.

 

[Iron Man]

Red herring or not it is my personal and professional opinion that the Raptor has a lower rear RCS than the J20. Do I know it as fact? No of course not but neither do you nor anyone else in this entire forum.

And why must people always bring in F22 comparisons when the topic was never even about that?

It's pretty obvious to anyone not biased that the F-22 has lower rear-aspect RCS compared to both the J-20 and the F-35. The F-35 has an additional stealth feature over the J-20 with the serrated exhaust nozzles which the AL-31Fs on the J-20 lack.

 

[Blitzo]

I would generally agree with the notion that F-22 and F-35 both have slightly more RCS reduction measures than J-20 for the engine nozzles, which is of course a significant RCS contributor in the rear aspect.

=========

However, I've never been a fan of the term "all aspect stealth," because that term seems to imply that there is such thing as "complete" stealth to begin with, and it also usually goes hand in hand with suggesting an aircraft lacking "all aspect stealth" somehow only has "frontal stealth".

In reality of course, "complete stealth" doesn't exist, and if two stealth aircraft are being compared for their RCS returns then it would have to be done in relation to their practical differences in that aspect, at least for those of us lacking the necessary knowledge and simulators. For J-20, if we are comparing its aft aspect to F-22 or F-35, the most significant difference is J-20 using relatively conventional round nozzles which lack serrations. However, I would strongly argue that such a difference is far from enough to say it "lacks" all aspect stealth or that F-22 or F-35 having a flat or round+serrated nozzle "has" all aspect stealth" because I think one could make a case for just how significant that difference in RCS returns of a conventional nozzle vs a flat or serrated nozzle actually is from a radar in that aft aspect of the plane, to warrant such a major difference in descriptive RCS reduction as saying that one aircraft has "all aspect stealth" while another lacks it.

I would say it is far more sensible to say that aircraft with significant RCS or IR reduction measures for their engine nozzles, compared with aircraft with lesser, few, or no RCS/IR reduction measures for their engine nozzles, should be better described only within the context of their degree of RCS reduction for their overall aft aspect at most... And that might even be pushing it a little considering the aft aspect RCS of a stealth aircraft is also made up other design features like edge alignment, RAM, and overall geometrical design of aft fuselage and things like serrations.
So I'd say it's more accurate to describe the relationship as "J-20 has less aft aspect RCS reduction than F-22" or that "J-20 has less engine RCS reduction than F-22". This might seem like nitpicking, but if one reads those sentences, the meaning it conveys is quite different to saying "F-22 has all aspect stealth while J-20 only has frontal aspect stealth" (paraphrasing kwaig's reply #3952). I do of course agree more with kwaig's reply #3963 where he describes the relationship similar to how I did and is less extreme than using terms like "all aspect stealth" (he did say "Raptor has a lower rear RCS than the J20" which is less extreme), but to be most accurate especially in the complicated aft aspect of an aircraft I think highlighting that the single most major difference is really just the difference in engine nozzles. Engine nozzles are a big contributor in the aft aspect, perhaps even the single largest contributor, but the differences I think are not enough to dominate the discussion about RCS returns in the aft aspect imho.



As for aircraft which are sometimes said to lack "all aspect stealth" (like J-20 or PAK FA or even F-35 in some circles) still retain what I think most people would surmise to be similar RCS reduction profiles to say, F-22, from the side aspects and dorsal aspect, and ventral aspect (depending on the aircraft in question for this last one)... so when "all aspect stealth" is mentioned it is usually a fancier term for "no flat/serrated nozzles"... which I find a bit dubious

 

[siegecrossbow]

I don't think the speculative discussion is very productive since there's been a lot of back and forth arguments that got no where. Can we drop it for the moment?

 

[AssassinsMace]