J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[Pmichael]

Wouldn't the J-20 rather act like other delta-canard aircraft like the Eurofighter and try to conserve its energy through vertical maneuvers instead of trying to outturn other aircraft?

 

[kwaigonegin]

Err, you still haven't really answered my question -- "(do you agree then) that the lack of mirrors on F-22 means that is also similarly not intended for "knife fights"?"

Just yes/no.

You're a persistent one LOL
but I'm moving on brutha because I don't want to drag on this mirror thing indefinitely but I will say this.. The F22's primary reason for being was stealth and to absolutely utilize stealth to it's biggest advantage given the technologies available 20 years ago. The fact that is has 2D nozzles and a full 360 degree cockpit tells me that knifefights was calculated into the equation BUT again as I have mention SEVERAL times the INTENT of the F22 is to destroy enemies at standoff distances with AMRAAMs and NOT ASRAAM or AIM9s.

The F22 is also all aspect stealth unlike J20 with mostly just on her frontal arc. with the aim9x finally making it's way to the Raptor is will certainly be a formidable knife fighter. The only thing lacking is full HMD integration however I believe that the block 2 9Xs will mitigate that with HHOBS.

 

[Blitzo]

You're a persistent one LOL
but I'm moving on brutha because I don't want to drag on this mirror thing indefinitely but I will say this.. The F22's primary reason for being was stealth and to absolutely utilize stealth to it's biggest advantage given the technologies available 20 years ago. The fact that is has 2D nozzles and a full 360 degree cockpit tells me that knifefights was calculated into the equation BUT again as I have mention SEVERAL times the INTENT of the F22 is to destroy enemies at standoff distances with AMRAAMs and NOT ASRAAM or AIM9s.

The F22 is also all aspect stealth unlike J20 with mostly just on her frontal arc. with the aim9x finally making it's way to the Raptor is will certainly be a formidable knife fighter. The only thing lacking is full HMD integration however I believe that the block 2 9Xs will mitigate that with HHOBS.

So... still no yes or no to my question?

I think you understand what I'm getting at -- this question is meant to demonstrate that the presence of mirrors or lack of presence of mirrors is a silly thing to look at when trying to judge their role in a "knife fight" let alone how capable they are meant to be in it.

 

[Air Force Brat]

So... still no yes or no to my question?

I think you understand what I'm getting at -- this question is meant to demonstrate that the presence of mirrors or lack of presence of mirrors is a silly thing to look at when trying to judge their role in a "knife fight" let alone how capable they are meant to be in it.

Come on Blitzo, drop it, Kwai has been more than clear, and explained in detail, what we all know to be true of the J-20, no need to set up a "strawman" dog and pony show just to entertain your "minions"?? LOL

Kwai has worked in and around the boat in the pri-fly for USN, he is an authority here, with time at sea doing the do! really no need to press him further, or he might tell you what he really thinks???

 

[Blitzo]

Come on Blitzo, drop it, Kwai has been more than clear, and explained in detail, what we all know to be true of the J-20, no need to set up a "strawman" dog and pony show just to entertain your "minions"?? LOL

It's not a straw man if he raised the original point to begin with.

And I'm not doing so to entertain anyone, and I'm not sure who "minions" you are referring to. Quite frankly, calling other members "minions" like that is a bit insulting to them, don't you think?

If he raised the original point about mirrors seemingly being tied to a "knife fight" role, then it's quite well within my rights to politely press him on the logic behind his conclusion and challenge him on it. And by doing so, I'd like to see if he sees any logical inconsistencies behind his conclusion, and/or if he chooses to change his position or not.

I've been quite consistent in asking for clarification over the last few posts but he's chosen not to answer the simple yes/no question. That is well within his rights of course, but that does lead me (and others) to reach some of our own conclusions based on his evasion.

Kwai has worked in and around the boat in the pri-fly for USN, he is an authority here, with time at sea doing the do! really no need to press him further, or he might tell you what he really thinks???

Actually I would exactly like to know what he really thinks, because all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer to my question.

As for his experience in the USN -- while anyone's service is something to be respected and paid heed to, that does not exclude them from challenges towards the way they frame an argument or the logic in which they reach a conclusion.

 

[Jeff Head]

Really GREAT new pics of these serial birds.

 

[kwaigonegin]

It's not a straw man if he raised the original point to begin with.

And I'm not doing so to entertain anyone, and I'm not sure who "minions" you are referring to. Quite frankly, calling other members "minions" like that is a bit insulting to them, don't you think?

If he raised the original point about mirrors seemingly being tied to a "knife fight" role, then it's quite well within my rights to politely press him on the logic behind his conclusion and challenge him on it. And by doing so, I'd like to see if he sees any logical inconsistencies behind his conclusion, and/or if he chooses to change his position or not.

I've been quite consistent in asking for clarification over the last few posts but he's chosen not to answer the simple yes/no question. That is well within his rights of course, but that does lead me (and others) to reach some of our own conclusions based on his evasion.




Actually I would exactly like to know what he really thinks, because all I wanted was a simple yes or no answer to my question.

As for his experience in the USN -- while anyone's service is something to be respected and paid heed to, that does not exclude them from challenges towards the way they frame an argument or the logic in which they reach a conclusion.

I will entertain your persistency and yes in my opinion as far the the mirror is concern yes, I do think that a mirror does come in handy in a knife fight or even any situation where a pilot needs to check his 6 or just to look down the spine of his aircraft for whatever reason.
That's my final answer so let's move on shall we?

 

[Blitzo]

I will entertain your persistency and yes in my opinion as far the the mirror is concern yes, I do think that a mirror does come in handy in a knife fight or even any situation where a pilot needs to check his 6 or just to look down the spine of his aircraft for whatever reason.
That's my final answer so let's move on shall we?

So yes, you do believe that the F-22 is as unsuited to the "knife fight" role as the J-20 is because just like J-20, the F-22 lacks mirrors?

Great, thank you or settling that.

 

[plawolf]

The F22 is also all aspect stealth unlike J20 with mostly just on her frontal arc. with the aim9x finally making it's way to the Raptor is will certainly be a formidable knife fighter. The only thing lacking is full HMD integration however I believe that the block 2 9Xs will mitigate that with HHOBS.

Please not this red herring again! Other than the lack of F22 style 'stealth nozzles' (which incidently, neither does the F35 have), what other nitpick could detractors point to to suggest the J20 does not have all aspect stealth?

And no, I do not accept the suggestion that the side ventral fins are that bad for stealth, especially when taken into context of the much reduced vertical tail on the J20 compared to the likes of the F22.

All other things being equal, you will got a bigger RCS return from the F22's vertical tail than you would from the J20's tail and ventral fin combined.

 

[latenlazy]

Please not this red herring again! Other than the lack of F22 style 'stealth nozzles' (which incidently, neither does the F35 have), what other nitpick could detractors point to to suggest the J20 does not have all aspect stealth?

And no, I do not accept the suggestion that the side ventral fins are that bad for stealth, especially when taken into context of the much reduced vertical tail on the J20 compared to the likes of the F22.

All other things being equal, you will got a bigger RCS return from the F22's vertical tail than you would from the J20's tail and ventral fin combined.

Also, consider that in close range with constant maneuvering you're probably not going to be able to sustain a lock on the narrow angles where RCS might spike, for either aircraft. Sustained "knife-fights" after the initial merge are more likely than not going to settled at the infrared spectrum, not microwave.