J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[FORBIN]

OT
It might be that many in Taiwan see the idiocy of wasting more money on the military.

Not agree, ofc Taiwan is completely outmatched in Qty and Quality but always try to defend his country is the duty !
And they use now a new asymnetric strategy with much new missiles to compensate the very unfavorable ratio of forces.

But OT and eventualy post on Taiwan thread guys.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Question: does J-20 have a lifting body?

Great question, yes sir it does, if you notice the heavy "chining down the sides of the forward fuselage that is your first clue that the designers were looking for lift.

The lift developed by the forward fuselage, in conjunction with the far forward "distant coupled" canards, move the center of lift forward of where it would be on an older aft mounted delta.

This all enhances maneuverability as well as hedges against "mach tuck", the phenomena of the nose wanting to "tuck under" as we go supersonic and beyond.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Not agree, ofc Taiwan is completely outmatched in Qty and Quality but always try to defend his country is the duty !
And they use now a new asymnetric strategy with much new missiles to compensate the very unfavorable ratio of forces.

But OT and eventualy post on Taiwan thread guys.

Yes sir that is correct, I was almost a "Formosan" as 4 of those MC-130E Combat Talon 1's were based there in the 66-67 time frame. It would have been a 2 year assignment, and my Grandpa was very unhealthy and may have already had cancer.

He died while my Dad was in Vietnam in 68, so my Dad had turned that assignment down. If you note my Avatar Forbin, that is my Dad flying the MC-130E in "Indian Country". Yes I am part "Cherokee"!

 

[delft]

Not agree, ofc Taiwan is completely outmatched in Qty and Quality but always try to defend his country is the duty !
And they use now a new asymnetric strategy with much new missiles to compensate the very unfavorable ratio of forces.

But OT and eventualy post on Taiwan thread guys.

OT
The Taiwan government can safely exist until it does something idiotic when it will be turned off without war. So the new asymmetric strategy is irrelevant.

 

[vincent]

Great question, yes sir it does, if you notice the heavy "chining down the sides of the forward fuselage that is your first clue that the designers were looking for lift.

The lift developed by the forward fuselage, in conjunction with the far forward "distant coupled" canards, move the center of lift forward of where it would be on an older aft mounted delta.

This all enhances maneuverability as well as hedges against "mach tuck", the phenomena of the nose wanting to "tuck under" as we go supersonic and beyond.

Thanks bud

 

[Air Force Brat]

Thanks bud

Thank you!

 

[Equation]

FUBAR ?

Facts are
Ofc F-16V dont want a heavy fighter stealth 5th Gen. than the J-20 with very possible a ragar more powerful, more big and have in more an IRST and can be armed with up to 10 AAM vs 6 for F-16s in general.
J-20 more agile also only thing don' t have a gun.

But F-16V with this new radar, want almost an APG-81 a variant , is a clearly more difficult rival for others Chiese fighters especialy those without AESA, PESA radars than Flankers mainly Su-27/J-11which have a decent radar but enough old now, less long range but can be armed in practice with 10 AAMs.

On the fund not always right with you but " i love you " my friend

Facts is that J-20 is stealth and any radar on that FUBAR F-16V won't be able to pick it up. That the F-16V has to be equipped with some kind anti-stealth radar and we both know that the only country that has them is the PRC. It's that same old mantra again, that anything the US (West) is always will be better than the PRC.

 

[weig2000]

For those of you interested in Taiwan's options in air and air defense against mainland China, Rand Corp. has published a report this year to assess the threat that Taiwan is facing, even before J-20 is added to the mix, and make their recommendations.

Essentially, Rand thinks Taiwan should reduce their investment in fighter aircraft (e.g., reducing the retrofit F-16 from 144 to 50) given the superiority of mainland's air force in the air and the vulnerability of these aircraft on the ground, and instead focus on SAMs, especially the short-range ones.

It's a tacit admission that it's a waste of resources for Taiwan to invest for air superiority. I guess in another five years, an updated report would advise Taiwan to be better prepared for street fight in a "coercive scenario."

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An Assessment of Relative Costs and Operational Benefits
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Taiwan faces one of the most difficult air defense problems in the world. Because of that, it cannot easily look to how other nations have invested in air defenses to guide its force structure decisions. What makes Taiwan's air defense problem so difficult is the combination of its proximity to China and the massive investments that the People's Republic of China has made in a range of systems that threaten Taiwan's aircraft. China's fighter aircraft capabilities have surpassed those of Taiwan in the air. Furthermore, China now has the capability to destroy all of Taiwan's aircraft at their bases. Thus, Taiwan needs to rethink how it can accomplish its air defense goals. Fighter aircraft are not the only element of Taiwan's air defense; surface-to-air missiles are the other major element. This report analyzes how Taiwan might approach air defense, by downsizing and shifting its fighter aircraft force to focus on coercive scenarios, increasing its investment in surface-to-air missiles, and dedicating its surface-based air defense to becoming an enduring warfighting capability able to contribute throughout the duration of a sustained and effective defense of Taiwan. It describes the essential air defense problem posed by the People's Liberation Army, characterizes the current capabilities and level of funding that Taiwan invests in air defense, and then develops several alternative investment strategies. The authors then test those investment strategies in three vignettes that span the range of conflict, from quite limited coercive uses of force to a full invasion.

Key Findings
People's Liberation Army (PLA) Capabilities Force Taiwan to Substantially Rethink and Restructure Its Air Defense Because Taiwan's Fighter Force Faces a Trio of Problems

• Taiwan's fighter force is vulnerable to missile attack while on the ground.
• It is outnumbered in the air.
• It is less capable in the air than the latest PLA aircraft.

Surface-to-Air Missiles' Survivability Makes Them a Preferred Option

• Multilayered surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) can become an important contributor to Taiwan's defense as enablers of other defensive operations but not to defend fixed targets.
• They are a difficult capability for China to counter easily.

Taiwan Needs More-Mobile and Shorter-Range Air Defense Systems

• Taiwan's existing Patriot and TK forces provide relatively long-range capabilities that need to be complemented with a shorter-range, more-survivable system.

Taiwan Can Afford New SAM Investments If It Divests Some of Its Existing Fighter Aircraft Fleet

• SAMs are affordable within current budget levels if Taiwan divests some of its existing fighter force.

Recommendations

• To continue to provide a credible deterrent and be seen as having the potential to contest its own airspace, Taiwan needs to invest in and invigorate its SAM force. These should get priority over fighters.
• As Taiwan assesses its future air defense needs, it should devote most of its air defense resources to investment in its surface-to-air missile (SAM) force. In sizing that force, it should be able to meet the demands on the SAM forces to support maneuver forces in an invasion scenario but also have the capacity to meet some air defense demands in a coercive scenario, which could be a prelude to a larger conflict and thus places an additive demand on the SAM force. Taiwan's fighter force is limited to a supporting role in coercive scenarios involving very low levels of force. In sizing the force, Taiwan should first consider the demand for SAMs.
• A shorter-range system that could provide a more cost-effective layered air defense should complement current Patriot/TK III systems. A new air defense system could engage aircraft and cruise missiles using ground-launched air-to-air missiles. Such a system could rapidly engage many targets, have a deep magazine, and be built around lower-cost radars networked together that allow them to effectively engage many targets in a short amount of time.

Table of Contents
...

 

[Equation]

For those of you interested in Taiwan's options in air and air defense against mainland China, Rand Corp. has published a report this year to assess the threat that Taiwan is facing, even before J-20 is added to the mix, and make their recommendations.

Essentially, Rand thinks Taiwan should reduce their investment in fighter aircraft (e.g., reducing the retrofit F-16 from 144 to 50) given the superiority of mainland's air force in the air and the vulnerability of these aircraft on the ground, and instead focus on SAMs, especially the short-range ones.

It's a tacit admission that it's a waste of resources for Taiwan to invest for air superiority. I guess in another five years, an updated report would advise Taiwan to be better prepared for street fight in a "coercive scenario."

But SAMs are so unsexy compare to fighter jets. There's no way to hype up the Chinese youth living in a Taiwan province to join the military, that's already been in a steady decline, with just SAM's for commercial purposes. I mean with a declining military personnel and capability dwindling as the years goes by, the current "self governing" body will have no tools or robots to protect their legitimacy to rule.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I did not say for free, there would be financial payments under a lend lease arrangement. Taiwan is probably doing the U.S. a favour by taking those destined / mothballed Perry Class frigates off her hands.

Anyway money is not the problem. Taiwan has a Debt to GDP % about35% and with one of the biggest currency reserves, she should have no trouble getting a loan for peacetime upgrades of her military. To date Congress has been more than willing to supply Taiwan with much of what she wants and its only Taiwanese politics and foot dragging on Bush and Obama’s part have we seen it slow down.

Now that all those aspects have been settled and a President Trump who wants to see countries playing a bigger role in their own defence, the supply of military equipment may well speed up.

Anyway this is way off topic, so best to leave it at that…….ok.

No doubt things will improve strategically for Taiwan with a Trump Presidency. Mr. Trump intends to build our own defenses, and assist our allies in strengthening their defenses.. Mr. Obama was not a serious player as his depth of concern was more "self centered" as opposed to taking the long view and viewing our security as a regional concern.

Taiwan is a "front line", as is Japan and S.Korea, the US has always recognized that, and has assisted and encouraged those countries with their own defenses. The Marine deployment of 12 F-35Bs and Air Forces Frequent rotation of F-22s to Kadena AB and parts nearby all attest to the serious concern over China's island building venture.

I would encourage all parties involved in this discussion to "dial it back" out of respect for our good friend Jeff Head, who is fighting "terminal cancer". He has been a very faithful moderator and friend, lets show him the respect he deserves by "playing nice" with one another. Please???? really, you all have good points, please present those in a respectful manner, and show Jeff that even though he is "under the gun" that this forum which means so much to him, loves him, and values the steady hand of leadership that he and BD Popeye have worked so hard to build here on SDF.