J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
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B787 we have an aerodynamics thread, and I would recommend one of the mods move your several off topic posts there. You seem to like posting "flame bait" and then when "pinched" by your own lack of practical experience, love to obfuscate and throw handfuls of "dust in the air". I'm rather afraid that you might be my old buddy Mig-29, with your never ending Russian love, and rather off-handed criticism of the J-20.

You seem to suffer "information overload", while lacking practical ability to apply it to the topic at hand?? There is NOTHING strange about the J-20's verts or vents, they work, and enable the J-20 to recover from post-stall maneuvering without OVT.

Allow me the luxury gentlemen, of apologizing to my Good Friend, B787, I'm am sorry brother, you are truly a bright lad, I am more than a little passionate about aerodynamics, an B787 is a fellow aviation enthusiast, in fact his knowledge of aircraft types and configurations likely far exceeds mine, and he can probably do the math, for which I am greatly jealous??

My simple pragmatic knowledge is born of the necessity of conducting safe and professional air operations, particularly when my children art aboard with me.

Let me say gentlemen, that I only "tweak" those of you who can take it, and understand where I am coming from, I hold each of you in high regard, and your friendship and respect are the highest honors. I may never have great wealth or power, but as long as I have you gentlemen as my colleagues, that's the most precious honor of all, and the greatest wealth, your's respectfully in my Lord, brat.
 

Franklin

Captain
A better question is why should the J-20 change from Al-31 series 3 to WS-10B?
Both engines are of similar thrust category, so it's not like changing to WS-10B will significantly enhance the aircraft's performance (and we also have no evidence of any difference in reliability, MTBO etc, so let's assume they're similar). OTOH changing engines will still require a period of testing and verification of J-20 with the new engine regardless which will mean additional time and money. Adding on interim J-20s with WS-10Bs will also complicate the logistics of J-20s, as they'll be split between Al31Fs and WS-10Bs. CAC also appear to have a fairly steady supply of Al-31 series 3, and more importantly this engine is still being used as interim propulsion anyway, where WS-15 is meant to become the true long term powerplant.

Putting it simply, changing from Al-31F series 3 to WS-10B provides no meaningful improvement in performance, and integration of a different engine will require time and money as well, all for an interim solution... so it actually makes sense to not change to WS-10B.

The two reasons why I can see why it would make sense to change from WS-10B to Al-31F is if the supply of Russian engines suddenly dries up for some reason and they are forced to change their interim engine type; with the second reason being if WS-15 becomes continuously delayed to a point where the Air Force sees positive long term consequences for changing to WS-10B.
Because with a strategically important platform like the J-20 you want as many domestic components as possible especially the powerplant. The WS-15 maybe 5 to 10 years away. The last I heard is that only a technology demonstrator has been fired up. They are still working on the prototype. Its going to take along time before we can see the WS-15 in production.

And why didn't CAC use the WS-10 from the beginning ? Or at least from 2011 onwards. And work with Shenyang to modify the engine for the needs of the J-20 as a interim salution untill the WS-15 is available.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Because with a strategically important platform like the J-20 you want as many domestic components as possible especially the powerplant. The WS-15 maybe 5 to 10 years away. The last I heard is that only a technology demonstrator has been fired up. They are still working on the prototype. Its going to take along time before we can see the WS-15 in production.

I don't think we know enough about WS-15 to be able to project how far it is away.

That said, if they have a reliable supply of engines (even if Russian) and able to overhaul it themselves, and if a domestic engine currently cannot offer any meaningfully better performance, while also requiring additional time and money to test the airframe for a domestic engine (not to mention divergent logistics), then I think there is a case to argue that there is very little benefit in even using a domestic engine for a "strategically important" platform even like J-20.
After all, the Air Force seems in no rush to re-engine J-10s, likely for similar reasons.


And why didn't CAC use the WS-10 from the beginning ? Or at least from 2011 onwards. And work with Shenyang to modify the engine for the needs of the J-20 as a interim salution untill the WS-15 is available.

Changing to a WS-10B variant now would make sense if there was a projected risk that there would be any sort of projected risk of Al-31F series 3 deliveries being interrupted in the timespan that the Air Force envisages that they would need deliveries of those engines for.



I think we need to remember that even a WS-10B (or other WS-10 variant) would still be an "interim" solution for the J-20 powerplant, and it would be a solution that would require time and money to test and integrate, with different logistics chain to the existing powerplants, not to mention be less mature than Al-31F Series 3 overall (simply because the Al-31 family has been around for longer).

So I think unless there is a risk that the existing engine supply will be compromised, or if unless a domestic solution offers significantly greater capability, (or possibly unless the development of WS-15 takes much longer than originally projected), then it makes little sense to invest time and treasure into what would amount into what is essentially a new, less mature, solution that will only provide a similar interim capability to the existing powerplant.

(as for why didn't they equip later J-20 prototypes with WS-10 -- probably a combination of the same reasons I listed above, along with the likely fact that uprated WS-10s at the time were probably still not as ready)
 

siegecrossbow

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New picts of J-20 with vortices.

We7PiWG.jpg


QIWjSxE.jpg
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
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New picts of J-20 with vortices.

We7PiWG.jpg


QIWjSxE.jpg

beautiful Siege, just beautiful, and I have waited so long to see these, would love to be there and watch her being "beat on", like the tough chick she is! interesting to see just how effective those "vortex generators" really are.

thank you so much for posting, and a real "feather in your cap", good catch Bub!
 
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