J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Surely not ... a Chinese AAm with Einglish warning texts ;)

That's the German IRIS-T ...

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Besides that I'm a bit surprised to see these test in the publiac done at CAC ... I would have expected these to see - if ever - much later or done at the CFTE. MAybe we can see the main-bays loaded too soon.

These are two PL-10-drawings I found in a Chinese forum ...

These are only dummy aerodynamic tests.

We've seen the markers on J-20's side for a while. I reckon they started testing the side bays opening and closing during aerial maneuvers first, and now they are switching to those same maneuvers with an SRAAM tethered outside. After that will come a dummy release (probably at CFTE rather than CAC), then the same for the belly weapons bay. Some time after that, live firings of both.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Surely not ... a Chinese AAm with Einglish warning texts ;)

That's the German IRIS-T ...

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Besides that I'm a bit surprised to see these test in the publiac done at CAC ... I would have expected these to see - if ever - much later or done at the CFTE. MAybe we can see the main-bays loaded too soon.

These are two PL-10-drawings I found in a Chinese forum ...

My bad! I didn't notice those English text. May be the two look so similar, that's why they post it before the real missile's photo be available.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: Ws10a

At the Secret-Projects Forum "PaulMM (Overscan)" made a nice calculation of the missilies-length:

Been double checking my measurements.

I calculated the ratio of length between missile and J-20 is about 6.7.

Now, using my old calculated length of 20.5m (without pitot) that gives a missile length of 3.04m.

I also calculated the length a completely different way and ended up closer to 19.5m (without pitot). That gives a missile length of 2.9m.

Deino's recent calculations giving 20.35m would imply missile is about 3.0m.

If the 22m length believers are right, then that gives a missile length of 3.28m.

I believe the true length of this missile is likely to lie in 2.9-3.0m range, which means the length of J-20 lies in the 19.5-20.5m range, and probably nearer the top end.

Lots of assumptions made, a clear side on image with the whole aircraft and missile in view would be handy.

For comparison:

IRIS-T - 2.936m
A-Darter - 2.98m
ASRAAM - 2.9m
AIM-9X - 3.01m
R-73 - 2.93m

I'm going to say PL-10 is ~3.0m.

That fits nicely to my theory - and even more with that wide diameter in mind - that the PL-10 we saw so far (and as shown in my book :() was abandoned and replaced by a design based on the PL-8's diameter/body (which is exactly 2.99m long !) with new control fins, TVC and so on.

Deino
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: Ws10a

At the Secret-Projects Forum "PaulMM (Overscan)" made a nice calculation of the missilies-length:



That fits nicely to my theory - and even more with that wide diameter in mind - that the PL-10 we saw so far (and as shown in my book :() was abandoned and replaced by a design based on the PL-8's diameter/body (which is exactly 2.99m long !) with new control fins, TVC and so on.

Deino

Wrong thread Deino.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Hi all, long time no see! Someone says somewhere that the weapons tests seem to be too early in the J-20's development. So I remembered yet another rumor I had heard days ago: The J-20 will be inducted in small quantities between end of 2013 and the beginning of 2014... Yeah, that would be two years earlier than what previous rumor had it. ;)

I just love this kind of rumors because unlike predictions into the next decades or centuries, this kind is easy to prove or disprove.

So, where is 2003???, thats what I'm waiting on, and it seems that weapons testing is moving along, no one should underestimate what a faboulous piece of engineering the J-20 represents, and frankly as things have slowed all over, lots of the hard work of engineering this girl, will come to fruition. Oh and now that we know where you are, we did miss you, welcome back. Brat
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I think they'll still need the ability to slave missiles to the fighter. Main weapons bay and all.
Until we see inside that bay All bets are off. That said Here is my point.
When A Stealth Fighter like F22 has too engage a Target with her IR missiles. There are two ways She either has to Open her missiles Doors swing out her weapon and let it get a lock This increases drag and drops her stealth to nothing. Her pilot has to wait for the missile too move from a low grown to a grubling Growl too a full Tone This is How Raptor has to right now with AIM9M and minus a HMCS. It can take a lot of valuble time to get a Solid lock.

Option two is to use a HMCS and More advanced missile like the AIM9X blockII In which case the Fighter's computer plots the lock with the helmet that info is relayed too the misile seaker The missile doors pop open just long enough for the missile too clear the bay. before the bay opens The Missile is blind as to the Target. Then the missile uses the firing salution from the Fighter to figure out where to look to get it's lock and carry on for the kill. Trouble is that eats computer power, It demands a lot of tech. American fifth gens are dual Super computers with weapons, wings, sensors and engines as well as a place to park the pilot.

Now J20 allows a leser degree of Data link Use, infact this configuration seems like it was worked up specificly so that the J20 does not have too worry about establishing a full firing plot . The J20 pilot geting the order to intercept arms his master arms. The doors open and the arm rotates Door closes. the missile Seaker is allowed too establish it's own lock. The Pilot's computer will just feed When too fire and when not, All on it's own.
That said there is some comprimise here The J20 with a missile rail deployed is going too sacrifice some stealth and drag. but not any where near as much as A Raptor with open Doors waiting for a lock on.
Now we still have yet too see dummy loads and open main misslile Doors but this style seems to me a possiblility there as well. If so then the J20 Armed for operations would if needed too go active pull a Almost Transformers Style trick Doors open missiles move out presto Change-Oh armed Warbird.

Of course First we have too see Live weapons on the Rails
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Until we see inside that bay All bets are off. That said Here is my point.
When A Stealth Fighter like F22 has too engage a Target with her IR missiles. There are two ways She either has to Open her missiles Doors swing out her weapon and let it get a lock This increases drag and drops her stealth to nothing. Her pilot has to wait for the missile too move from a low grown to a grubling Growl too a full Tone This is How Raptor has to right now with AIM9M and minus a HMCS. It can take a lot of valuble time to get a Solid lock.

Option two is to use a HMCS and More advanced missile like the AIM9X blockII In which case the Fighter's computer plots the lock with the helmet that info is relayed too the misile seaker The missile doors pop open just long enough for the missile too clear the bay. before the bay opens The Missile is blind as to the Target. Then the missile uses the firing salution from the Fighter to figure out where to look to get it's lock and carry on for the kill. Trouble is that eats computer power, It demands a lot of tech. American fifth gens are dual Super computers with weapons, wings, sensors and engines as well as a place to park the pilot.

Now J20 allows a leser degree of Data link Use, infact this configuration seems like it was worked up specificly so that the J20 does not have too worry about establishing a full firing plot . The J20 pilot geting the order to intercept arms his master arms. The doors open and the arm rotates Door closes. the missile Seaker is allowed too establish it's own lock. The Pilot's computer will just feed When too fire and when not, All on it's own.
That said there is some comprimise here The J20 with a missile rail deployed is going too sacrifice some stealth and drag. but not any where near as much as A Raptor with open Doors waiting for a lock on.
Now we still have yet too see dummy loads and open main misslile Doors but this style seems to me a possiblility there as well. If so then the J20 Armed for operations would if needed too go active pull a Almost Transformers Style trick Doors open missiles move out presto Change-Oh armed Warbird.

Of course First we have too see Live weapons on the Rails

Sorry Terran, interesting little scenario, trouble is in the time it took me to read it the Raptor has launched and left, the Raptor ain't draggy, it ain't on your radar, you may suspect he is there, by the time you know, you are likely hanging on the Raptors meat pole. Now more than likely, you may face an F-35,,,,, I know, I know you're thinking no sweat, I can take the ThunderHogge II and have pork Bar BQ for supper, that is one mean, sneaky little HOGGE. I'm really not joking when I say the Raptor is the alien fighter, really, I'm not----this is the most underrated airplane for capability on the planet, with the possible exception of the porky little ThunderHogge. I'm wearing my most irratating smirk, the one I only wear, when I KNOW I'm RIGHT! Appropriate Maniacal laughter HERE. Will any of these girls perform as advertised?????,,,I'm fairly confident ours will, somebody mentioned that they had skipped the F-117 stage, to which I would sincerely ask, are you sure?? BRAT
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Good summary TE, but just to clarify, the main issue with the Raptor's quick rail launch method is more the drag penalty rather then the RCS hit, since at WVR, RCS doesn't really matter all that much doors open or closed, the enemy has either already seen you and is dogfighting with you, or he hasn't and you are lining him up for an easy kill.

The biggest issue with the quick rail is in the name - quick rails, afaik, they are designed to be able to open and deploy the missile super quick so the pilot doesn't have to do the whole dogfight with doors open, he just needs to keep the lock for a second or fraction of a second longer than normal for the rails to deploy and missile to lock. That can be helpful in a dogfight against a good opponent in a good plane as every little advantage helps, but in that case, you need to be really thorough with your training and actually open the doors every time you simulate a missile launch in training, because opening those weapons bays and sticking a missile out into the slipstream can have a similar impact on the aircraft as deploying air brakes. If you are doing it in exercises all the time and knows what to expect in all kinds of situations and manoeuvres and how to ride out the drag hit and maintain lock, great. Otherwise you might be in for a some unpleasant shocks if you are fighting for real and experience that kind of sudden drag hit for the first time in a real dogfight.

If you are opening the doors all the time for realistic training experiences, that also presents potential issues in itself, such as additional stress and strain on the doors and surrounding supports. Also, knowing about a quirk is not always the same as being able to deal with it. There might be instances that Raptor pilots have learnt when a lock does not let you get a shot off, as the drag hit will throw the lock. Similar deal if you train to have the doors open throughout, as the drag hit will take a few %age points off of the raptor's turn rates and acceleration.

The issues with sudden, unexpected changes in aircraft handling from doors opening will not go away, and may actually be exacerbated by the introduction of new HMCS and AIM9XII.

But, since you seem to find it troubling that we seem to be on the same page so much lately, I'd thought I'd restore the balance a little and find something to disagree with you about. :p I question your characterisation of the computers on the F22 as 'supercomputers', iirc, the computers on the F22 might be super fast in comparison to what was on eariler jets, but wach only has about as much processing power as your IPhone 4. Given how long ago the F22 was designed compared to the other 5th gen contenders and factoring in Moore's Law, I really doubt the processing power of the F22 computer is anything to write home about today. For that reason, I don't think the Chinese rail solution has anything to do with the common suggestion on some forums that LOAL is too hard for the Chinese so they opted to stick the whole missile out instead.

LOAL is a cool feature, but one of the issues with it is that the pilot has to keep the bogey in his sights for a few seconds after missile launch to aid the missile get a lock. If he looks away after launch before the missile has established a lock, its a wasted shot. Although pilots have done it since the beginning of air combat and no doubt will continue to do so until the end of manned aero combat, you are trained not to follow a target to confirm a kill as that puts yourself at additional and unnecessary risk. But that is in effect what you are encouraging with LOAL as the pilot has to keep the target in his sights after launch to use his HMCS to continue to direct the missile rather than getting a good look around his aircraft for new threats and targets as he should.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Until we see inside that bay All bets are off. That said Here is my point.
When A Stealth Fighter like F22 has too engage a Target with her IR missiles. There are two ways She either has to Open her missiles Doors swing out her weapon and let it get a lock This increases drag and drops her stealth to nothing. Her pilot has to wait for the missile too move from a low grown to a grubling Growl too a full Tone This is How Raptor has to right now with AIM9M and minus a HMCS. It can take a lot of valuble time to get a Solid lock.

Option two is to use a HMCS and More advanced missile like the AIM9X blockII In which case the Fighter's computer plots the lock with the helmet that info is relayed too the misile seaker The missile doors pop open just long enough for the missile too clear the bay. before the bay opens The Missile is blind as to the Target. Then the missile uses the firing salution from the Fighter to figure out where to look to get it's lock and carry on for the kill. Trouble is that eats computer power, It demands a lot of tech. American fifth gens are dual Super computers with weapons, wings, sensors and engines as well as a place to park the pilot.

Now J20 allows a leser degree of Data link Use, infact this configuration seems like it was worked up specificly so that the J20 does not have too worry about establishing a full firing plot . The J20 pilot geting the order to intercept arms his master arms. The doors open and the arm rotates Door closes. the missile Seaker is allowed too establish it's own lock. The Pilot's computer will just feed When too fire and when not, All on it's own.
That said there is some comprimise here The J20 with a missile rail deployed is going too sacrifice some stealth and drag. but not any where near as much as A Raptor with open Doors waiting for a lock on.
Now we still have yet too see dummy loads and open main misslile Doors but this style seems to me a possiblility there as well. If so then the J20 Armed for operations would if needed too go active pull a Almost Transformers Style trick Doors open missiles move out presto Change-Oh armed Warbird.

Of course First we have too see Live weapons on the Rails

I got where you were coming from the first time, BUT I simply don't see how you could implement the same kind of mechanism (or another mechanism that could achieve the same results) with the main weapons bay. That's why I mentioned that slaving would still be a necessary capability.

Given that most of the F-22's computing solutions were invented in the 90s, I'm also highly doubtful that there would be a roadblock in computing and datalinking for any country with a healthy electronics sector twenty years later. It's just as likely that CAC arrived at their side bay exposed rail solution because they thought this was the solution that would yield the best results in combat, and not because of some roadblock in computing and datalinking capability. For example, if there is no penalty in combat performance, using this solution could free up computing power to do other things. Or perhaps it is just a flat out superior method to the one implemented on the F-22.

EDIT: plawolf got there before me, so what he said.
 

Engineer

Major
The main weapon bay is most likely going to carry BVR missiles. These missiles receive telemetries from the aircraft's fire control radar before launch. They don't need to be outside of the aircraft to get a lock, so they can be popped out of the weapon bay at the very last moment.
 
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